I Remember

April 30th, 2009 by Inni Kaur

India has a strange hold on me.

It is not my birthplace,

But

It is in my soul.

 

I hear the bell of Krishna;

I hear the call of Muhammad;

I hear the chant of Buddha;

I hear the Shabad of Guru Nanak.

 

I have knelt on its soil;

I have kissed its ground.

I yearn

To be mingled with its dust.

 

The Pogroms of 1984

Shattered this love.

Instantly, I grew up.

 

I saw my mother-in-law, a strong, brave woman, crumble as images from India filtered through our television in Fairfield, Connecticut, U.S.A. Her memories of the Partition came rushing back. Memories that she had tucked deep within gushed out. It was 1947 all over again for her.

I heard her stories; I witnessed her tears; I thought I understood, but I was wrong. I could not have understood, because I did not experience it.

In March of 1985, I flew from New York to India, to be with my mother. She was visiting her sister in Janakpuri, a suburb of Delhi. Delhi was tense. The mood was sombre. People stayed indoors.

One evening at around 9 pm, there was pounding at my aunt's door. Her Hindu neighbours had heard that busloads of goondas (thugs) were being brought into Janakpuri to burn down Sikh homes.

What transpired after that was surreal. My grandmother and I were assigned to a Hindu home in the neighbourhood. My mother and her sister went to another Hindu home. The rest of the family was scattered in yet other Hindu homes.

That night will forever be etched in my DNA.

My grandmother and I were put behind a tall steel cupboard in a pitch-black room. She was clinging to her large black handbag (into which she had stuffed her gold jewelry) and was saying her prayers.

I just sat dazed.

From time to time, we would hear loud voices coming from the street. My grandmother would tense up and hug me even closer.

I can't remember saying much. But I remember vividly what happened next.

My grandmother very calmly said: "Inni, if that door opens, I will kill you first and then I will kill myself."

She took out a knife from her black handbag and showed it to me.

I never uttered a word. There was nothing to say.

We sat quietly together and waited out the night.

The mob did not come. It was a false alarm.

The next morning, my mother insisted I leave Delhi. I flew to Bombay that evening.

Back home in Connecticut, I allowed myself to revisit my Delhi experience. But it was too painful. I could not comprehend it and so, I kept silent.

Years flew by.

From time to time, the memories would awaken and tears would flow. I was still unable to grasp the depth of my emotions.

The 20th anniversary of the 1984 massacre: I started to write. More tears flowed. Many pages were filled. Finally, the piece was done. I read it. Tears of gratitude flowed. The healing had taken place;

I could see it in my writing.

I sent the finished piece to my family and friends. Their response astounded me: "Why are you going there? What is the use? Forget about it!"

To say that I was shocked would be an understatement. I felt that someone had stabbed me with a knife.

I sent it to Sikh and Indian magazines. No one published it.

I died a thousand deaths during this process. Every rejection was a stab.

Gurumustuk Singh from sikhnet was the brave one who put it on his website.

My voice had found a place.

They say:

Do not write;

Do not speak;

Forget about it.

 

If I agree,

Then

In my silence

Lies my guilt.

 

As long as I draw breath,

As long as there is strength within me,

I will write,

I will speak.

For I remember ...  

 

I Remember...

The year is 1739.

Hindustan is in terror.

The cruelty of the Mughals

Is felt everywhere.

 

Nadir Shah is in Delhi

Looting the treasures,

Carting away twenty-two hundred Hindu women

For his private harem.

 

The news spreads like wildfire

Across this great land.

Helplessness and confusion

Reign supreme.

 

Sardar Jassa Singh,

Commander of the Sikh army,

Hears of this atrocity,

Vows to take a stand.

 

The Sikhs are a minority;

The Mughals have the upper hand.

Despite this disparity,

A midnight attack is planned.

The Mughal camp is asleep;

The Sikhs wait in silence.

At the stroke of midnight,

They begin the attack.

 

Kirpans are in the air;

The Mughals are caught off-guard.

The women are freed

And safely brought back.

In Hindu households,

Sighs of relief are heard

As the women rush back

To the arms of their loved ones.

 

There are Sikh casualties,

But there are no tears;

To uphold a woman's honour

Is the Sikh dharam.

 

From that day on,

A pattern emerged:

The Sikhs struck at midnight

To free the captured women.

 

Every night, the women prayed

For the safety of the Sikhs.

Mothers told their daughters,

"Trust only a Sikh."

 

Hindu mothers, with love,

Made their first-born sons Sikhs.

A sacred trust existed

Between a Hindu and a Sikh.

 

Through the centuries,

This trust and love continued,

Until the forces of evil

Raised their ugly head.

 

The year is 1984,

The unthinkable happened:

Our Hindu brothers

Turned on us.

 

Sikh women were raped;

Their fathers, husbands,

Sons and brothers

Butchered in front of their eyes.

 

The country was in shell-shock

At the brutality of this massacre;

Yet, no voice rose

To speak against this massacre.

 

I ask my Hindu sisters:

"Where were you?

Did your hearts not bleed

At the rape of your sisters?"

 

Twenty five years have gone by.

The pain has not diminished.

There are no answers

To what happened in 1984.

 

To my Hindu sisters,

I have one request:

Tell your sons, husbands and brothers

The sacrifices of the Sikhs.

 

To my Sikh brothers,

I need not remind you:

You are bound by our Guru

To protect the weak.

 

No Sikh hand will rise

Against any woman;

Be she a Hindu or a Muslim,

She has the protection of a Sikh.

 

My Ardaas:

Let the winds be gentle;

Let there be peace on this land;

Let this shattered trust

Be given a chance to grow.

But ask me not to forget,

For I remember...

On this 25th anniversary of the Pogroms of 1984, I reflect on the courage of the non-Sikhs who protected the Sikhs.

You are our unsung heroes.

I salute your bravery;

I salute your goodness;

I salute your morality.

 

But ask me not to forget,

For I remember...

 

Comments

May 22, 2009 - 3:33pm sach

Thank you veerji "Sikh-learner"

Veerji Sikh-learner…..Thank you for your kind words I strive to seek the truth and if somebody would try to tell me eg. that Raman effect in physics is in fact called Rahman (see the spelling) effect after a Muslim physicist then I would fight tooth and nail to tell that person the truth. I would tell that person that it is named after Professor CV Raman. His full name is Chandrasekara Venkata Raman who was born in a Hindu Brahmin family in Tiruchirapalli, Tamil Nadu. For his discovery he was awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics during 1930. Yet another example. If anyone tells me that the subatomic particle boson was not discovered by an Indian, I would say yes it was. Because I know he was a Hindu physicist from Bengal by the name of Satyendra Nath Bose. If anyone goes against me I will again fight tooth and nail to convince that person that he or she is wrong. These are just a couple of examples to show that right should be right. But unfortunately there are some at this website who are professional liars who do not want to here the truth from our other brothers/sisters when they try to hammer in some sense in their brains and still they are not prepared to know the truth. This person RK cannot even give a straight forward answer in the form of yes or no instead he wastes his time in writing long rubbish that doesn´t convince me at all or anyone else for that matter. I still maintain the theory that if the illiterate masses of India had known the truth (sachai) that the PM was not a Hindu woman, perhaps the lives of 15000 innocent Sikhs would have been saved. When not even this person “sukoot” knew that the PM had converted to Islam, how on earth can one expect the majority of the illiterate masses to know the truth? Truth was very smartly and promptly hidden by their bapu. I still can´t understand why it was necessary to send the might of as much as 70000 Indian soldiers to oust a handful of Sikhs who were at the Darbar Sahib complex! Why didn´t they starve them out instead? For how long can a man survive without food? Even Lt. Gen. Jagjit Singh Aurora(rtd) (liberator of Bangladesh) was against the Operation Blue Star. His advice was totally ignored. One can just wonder why? I still can´t understand why forty other Sikh Gurudwaras were attacked simultaneously. Attack on the holiest shrine of the Sikhs was an attack on every Sikh. Let us assume that there are some Palestinians who have taken refuge in the Al – Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem and are wanted by the state of Israel for their activities which are against the security of the state, can one ever imagine that the Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu would give the order to the military to commit sacrilege? I don´t think he would ever disrespect their religion by committing an act of sacrilege which would hurt the feelings of the millions of Muslims all over the world. But the arrogant PM of India just ignored the feelings of millions of Sikhs and gave the order to the army to desecrate the most holiest Shrine of the Sikhs just to capture a handful of the Sikhs. How smart? In my post of May 15 to “sukoot” and “RK” I had a lot of questions but never got any straight forward answers. I am repeating once again two questions to “RK”. Q. 1 Was it right of the Hindus when they saw innocent Sikhs burning and trembling saying: Look they are dancing bhangra? Just answer Yes or No. Q. 2. Was it right of the police to force the innocent Sikhs who were taken as prisoners and were made to drink the urine as Amrit? Just answer Yes or No. There are many Sikhs who would like to read your straight forward answers. Let every brother remind his sister about our Joan of Arc – Mai Bhago, let every sister remind her brother about the great heroes of the Khalsas – Baba Deep Singh Ji, Banda Singh Bahadur Ji and thousands more. Let them know that when the Rajput and Maratha Khatris could not rescue the captured Hindu girls, boys and women then it was the Jatha of Baba Deep Singh who saved them from the caravans of Ahmad Shah Abdali Under duress let us do Ardas and let us never forget the noble sacrifices of our ancestors. Let every teenager learn Ardas by heart and its meaning. Let us follow the Sikh way of life. Let us save our youngsters from the dangers of cigs., alcohol and most dangerous of all the DRUGS. Let them be Sikhs again. Let them don turbans again. Let them not be a lost generation. Our children in Punjab are deviating from the true path and we must save them from the catastrophe. Let the parents take their responsibility. There are some vicious elements who want to destroy us. Even if the evil forces will destroy us, we shall resurrect like the Phoenix – and once again will put the devils to the right path. LET THE YOUNGSTERS(OF BOTH GENDER) LEARN THE MARTIAL ARTS). Look what Bibi Rashpal Kaur could achieve. Let us tell the enemies of the Sikhs that they will never be able to break the spirit of the Khalsa. Never accept humiliation. Die as heroes and heroines with Waheguruji´s Name on lips. Let mothers sing the ballads of chivalry, sacrifices and so on. No one shall be so glad to see our children falling on the wrong path than the enemies of the Sikhs. Therefore once again every boy, girl, man and woman ought to be mentally and physically fit to face any future pogroms. (Let us hope this will never happen, but one never knows). Let us not teach our children and youngsters to hate anyone but they should be fighters against injustice. Sikhs must always be ready to help the weak and the needy and to fight for TRUTH AND JUSTICE. Let us make the duty of every Sikh to start teaching children our HISTORY even if we devote a few minutes everyday. Once again I would like to quote the writer Milan Kundera : “The first step in liquidating a people is to erase its memory. Destroy its books, its culture, its history. Then have somebody write new books, manufacture a new culture, invent a new history. Before long that nation will begin to forget what it is and what it was……..The struggle of man against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting” The army destroyed our Reference Library containing very precious manuscripts. For what reason? To destroy our history? Please read Sri Guru Gobind SinghJi´s Zafarnama: Epistle of Victory to our youngsters. IF WE FORGET OUR HISTORY THEN WE HAVE NOTHING LEFT TO FALL BACK UPON. We cannot confront the enemies of the Sikhs without the knowledge of our great and glorious past. The following just occurred to me. I just wonder how many of our youngsters know about it. I am giving a very condensed version. When Nadir Shah asked Zakaria Khan who the Sikhs were and where they lived. He was told that they were some poor sadhus who didn´t have any houses, but their houses were their horses! ZK said that they slept on their horsebacks! On hearing this Nadir Shah told ZK : “If that is the case, watch out then for them. One day they will rule the land.” Those who are the enemies of the Sikhs, they should read and ponder over our scriptures and they will find solace in their troubled souls. They should read Sri Japji Sahib Ji, Sri Sukhmani SahibJi, Sri Nitnem SahibJi and many more Banis. Finally I would like to quote from the hymn of Guru Angad Dev Ji: so kion anaha akhia: Why call them blind, Whom nature has robbed of sight; He that hath not discovered the divine will, Nanak, he is truly blind. Var Ramkali, page 954. Veerji keep on fighting for right cause, and may Waheguruji bless you and your family. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
May 22, 2009 - 11:00pm Romesh Kumar

Sach........................,

Sach........................, my answer to both of your questions is NO but how sure are you of authenticity of it happened ? Q. 1 Was it right of the Hindus when they saw innocent Sikhs burning and trembling saying: Look they are dancing bhangra? Just answer Yes or No >>>>>>> NO NO NO<<<<<<< ( but how authentic is it ?) Q. 2. Was it right of the police to force the innocent Sikhs who were taken as prisoners and were made to drink the urine as Amrit?Just answer Yes or No. >>>>>>> NO NO NO<<<<<<< ( but how authentic is it ? ). AND NUMBER 3 >>>>> ANTI-SIKH RIOTS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RELIGIOUS BACKGROUND OF PM. PM OF A COUNTRY WAS BACKSTABBED BY MOST TRUSTED SIKH BODYGUARDS AND SOME SIKHS STARTED DISTRIBUTING SWEETS, DANCING BHANGRA, CELEBRATIONS, CONGRATULATING EACH-OTHER WHICH RESULTED AS A FLASH POINT( now please do not blame me of justifying, I mentioned background and flash point. 84 riots are the only anti-sikh incident WHICH HAS NO JUSTIFICATION ).
May 17, 2009 - 2:19am Theodorus

PCJ2K ji, You wrote: "But

PCJ2K ji,

You wrote:
"But there is no guarantee that it is the proper translation because we don't know what gurus were thinking about at the time they wrote this."
I agree with that we cannot know. You see no language is perfect enough to actually convey thoughts. Even our Guru's couldn't do it. So how can you pass judgement over a religion by just looking at the texts it produced? I will not even try to give a definition of 'Religion' as I think you have much more thoughts on that then me but I do think religion is much more then the texts it left us humans to reflect upon.

You wrote:
"I am looking at that fact someone dares to disrespect 85% of the people who consider themselves Sikh by comparing them to sons of prostitutes. It's religions that give people excuses to do this kind of stuff."
Of course I realised that. But I think in saying this you are turning things around. It is not "religions that give people excuses to do so" but it is "people that mis-use religions for doing so"
If people want to find excuses for behaving badly they will use any excuse they can find. Bad upbringing, childhood trauma, being provoked, misuse of writings of philosophers (e.g. Karl Marx) etc. etc. and yes books of various religions too.
There is a Dutch saying "if you want to hit a dog you can always find a stick" (mind you dogs in my culture are not looked down upon, they are percieved to be very loyal and faithfull towards their boss and considered man's best friend).

you write:
"Spirituality is not like a car. The car will still take you around even if it isn't perfect but you are getting nowhere if spirituality isn't perfect."
I do disagree with you in this. I know my spirituality isn't perfect at all and I realise chances are slim that it ever will become perfect. Never the less I do hope it will in the end bring me to God. So I will keep trying and I will keep making mistakes.
I also know that the spirituality I found in Sikhism is far superiour to mine. So it will guide me in the right direction. What would I be to judge (with my limited spirituality) if Sikhism is spiritually perfect or not?

You write:
"No, you shouldn't feel sorry for me by ditching a religion"
I do feel sorry because you seem to feel so strongly about truth (which in itself is fine) that you seem to have forgotten all other virtues needed to be a spiritually fine person.
You seem to measure everything and everybody against 'the TRUTH'. In that 'the TRUTH' seems to be either obvious (to YOU that is) or you use the operational definition "When YOU know or can do better it cannot be the TRUTH". All in all a very weak definition as in both cases 'YOU' are in there, which makes things highly subjective (but I guess we already established that).

And you might not want to hear the truth..... but with all that I do feel (truthfully) sorry for you having "ditched a religion" as I think to know that there will come a time that you might regret it.

May 17, 2009 - 9:46am PCJ2K

Theodorus Ji, I think this

Theodorus Ji,

I think this is where the difference you and me exists: you are new to the Sikhi and you feel Sikhi has provided you with something you didn't have before and I had been Sikh all my life and whatever you received from Sikhi today, I understood that many years ago and somehow I believed being a Sikh was being a perfectionist, not necessarily perfect but a perfectionist in a way that someone who seeks perfection.

I am pretty sure you remember Calculus and Integration. For example, integration of X while X approaches infinity. X can never become infinity but it keeps approaching it and X approaches infinity, the integration is sum of all values of X.

X here is a seeker, Infinity here is The Lord and changes in X (dx) are all the values we accumulate while approaching The Lord.

So, it could very well be that my expectations from Sikhi were too high or unrealistic. But having high expectations is not bad as long as you still keep seeking the perfection.

I remember a video by Guruka Singh Ji in which he said that when you surrender yourself to Jesus for example, you are surrendering yourself to The Perfection. So what I understand from this is Jesus is not a person but simply a perfection. While we surrender ourselves to the perfection, we will keep accepting and rejecting things in life based upon the spiritual wisdom The Lord has provided us with. We can not be spiritually wiser than The Lord has already made us. Therefore, even if we do something others perceive as a mistake, it actually may not be a mistake for us because all we are doing is seeking perfection and if something doesn't seem to be part of the perfection, then maybe it was not meant to be perfect for us and we will find something else that is also part of the perfection.

So surrendering yourself to a guru or prophet is actually surrendering yourself to perfection. So, at the stage I am today, I feel that it's much safer to surrender myself to the perfection instead of a prophet or a guru. When we surrender ourselves to a guru or a prophet, we try to follow their footsteps as per our perception. But sometimes, we don't realize why they did what they did and that's when we actually end committing sins. The examples I have given you are the good examples - such as name-calling like Saakat, Kafir and also Muslims marrying little kids and raping their wives.

So, I know I will not regret it...

As far as people misunderstanding their own religion goes, if religion can be misunderstood, that means religion is not perfect enough to never be misunderstood. That means religion is not perfect. Therefore, religion may not be a perfect vehicle to achieve The Lord. Even if there are religious people who have established relationship with The Lord, although I don't believe that anybody has done so by following a religion, it could simply be due to their spiritual wisdom The Lord has provided them with...

Have a nice day :)

May 17, 2009 - 11:51am Theodorus

Thanks for your reply

PCJ2K ji,

you wrote:
"Have a nice day :)"
Thanks, I had a nice day, the weather was fine and I enjoyed it.

You wrote:
"you are new to the Sikhi and you feel Sikhi has provided you with something you didn't have before and I had been Sikh all my life and whatever you received from Sikhi today, I understood that many years ago."

You are right, I'm still learning and you made perfectly sense in your message until I read this:

"So surrendering yourself to a guru or prophet is actually surrendering yourself to perfection. So, at the stage I am today, I feel that it's much safer to surrender myself to the perfection instead of a prophet or a guru."

I thought that in Sikhism the only one you actually surrender to is God (WaheGuru) and that all other things like our 10 Guru's, the SGGS, rules and regulations, Sangat etc. etc. were there to help us. Don't read me wrong I do respect our Guru's and the SGGS for what they are and for what they have done for us but ultimatly a Sikh only surrenders to WaheGuru = Perfection. Everybody is suppose to have a direct link to God as he/she has the Guru inside. I never expected anything to be perfect except God itself. I mean I know what Christianity has sufferd by opholding the infallibility of the Pope (as represting God on earth).
I never planned to surrender myself to a guru or prophet.

You wrote:
"That means religion is not perfect. Therefore, religion may not be a perfect vehicle to achieve The Lord."

I knew that from the beginning. I never expected Sikhism (or any religion) to be perfect nor the perfect vehicle to archieve The Lord. I do not need a perfect vehicle, I just need a vehicle that takes me there.
So when you write:

"Even if there are religious people who have established relationship with The Lord, although I don't believe that anybody has done so by following a religion, it could simply be due to their spiritual wisdom The Lord has provided them with..."

I agree in that you need spiritiual wisdom but I also think that religion can realy help for those of us that are not that gifted with spiritiual wisdom. I mean it would be quite strange for the Lord not to give somebody enough spiritiual wisdom to actually reach him. But the Lord also gave us the common sense to seek for help when we are in need. And religion can provide that help we sometimes need.

I realise you think you can do without that help (that most of us not so spiritual gifted actually do need). I realy do hope so for your sake. I wanted to add "I'll pray for you" but I know you wouldn't like that so I won't (or perhaps that isn't up to you but to me? ;-)

May 18, 2009 - 8:07am PCJ2K

Theodorus Ji, Please don't

Theodorus Ji,

Please don't pray for me. I have said my prayer of a life time and that was a while ago when I less than ten-years old. My prayer to The Lord was that He knew the best and He should do whatever is right. Even if I cry and beg for something, He should not give it to me unless it's the right thing to have.

I strongly believe that He listened to my prayer at that time. So, your prayer may not work as He listens to children more than adults.

But let me ask you this: When we say we have faith in The Lord, don't we have enough faith in Him that He would always do the right thing? Then why do we pray to The Lord to have anything other than He thinks is the right thing to have? He knows the best. So, leave it up to Him.

Remember in my previous post, X approaches Infinity but never gets there? So, we will never get to The Lord. We can only have better thinking but can not have a thinking equal to The Lord. We can not be what The Lord has not made us. So, for us, meeting The Lord means that we achieve such a state where we feel Lord's presence everywhere. When two people are in love, they feel each other's presence everywhere. They take their beloveds everywhere they go. They feel that their beloveds are always with them. It's the same with The Lord as well.

You will not need a religion to do so, simply have desire to be prefect and love for The Lord. If religion could help you get their, there would be no uncivilized religious people around us.

May 18, 2009 - 10:02am Theodorus

What am I to pray for?

PCJ2K ji,

You wrote:
"Please don't pray for me. I have said my prayer of a life time and that was a while ago when I less than ten-years old. My prayer to The Lord was that He knew the best and He should do whatever is right. Even if I cry and beg for something, He should not give it to me unless it's the right thing to have."

I couldn't help smiling when I read this ;-). Of course you are right but ..... you do not know what I would pray for do you?

You also wrote:
"I strongly believe that He listened to my prayer at that time. So, your prayer may not work as He listens to children more than adults.""

I might be 54 yrs. of age but I'm still very young at heart and even much much younger in Sikhism so perhaps....... ;-)

You wrote:
"But let me ask you this: When we say we have faith in The Lord, don't we have enough faith in Him that He would always do the right thing? Then why do we pray to The Lord to have anything other than He thinks is the right thing to have? He knows the best. So, leave it up to Him."

I do know you already know that this kind of reasoning will get you nowhere as in the end it will stop you from doing anything as you realise everything is ordained already. I think to know that that is not the way to go about. So I've let this dilemma unsolved and won't go this way now either.

You wrote:
"Remember in my previous post, X approaches Infinity but never gets there? So, we will never get to The Lord."

You'll get there in the end for sure but before you just need to die (to take that last step). As that is the point in which your soul merges into God again.

You wrote:
"If religion could help you get their, there would be no uncivilized religious people around us."

I, unlike you, do not mistake '(uncivilized) religious people' with 'religion itself'. There are black sheep in every community or family and I'm also not going to measure a community by it's black sheep.

Sat Sri Akal

May 19, 2009 - 4:12pm thelearner2009 (not verified)

dont like a false baba to Sachae patsha Gobind Singh

If binderwale was so clever and Guru Like why did he do these things Kill hindus and sikhs both celebratin holi festival "all possessions you see are an illusion" By guru nanak a extract from his words. Whats the point in killing over land, it wont go with you to god. Use the holliest shrine as an arsenal. You cant have weapons in the Harminder sahib its prohibited by Nirmal sants Kill jatts sikhs air india 182, is that a justification of Being pure THE HELL IT ISNT! "If other means FAIL" AN EXTRACT FROM SACHE PATSHA GOBIND SINGH. DID OTHER MEANS FAIL TELL ME OH GREAT MAN. everyone lies atleast once no1 is perfect and he had an ego just cos he looks and acted like a guru it doesn't mean his heart and soul is like a guru. After all that violence in punjab khalistan was not gained and killing gandhi made it all worse vesi karni. yes u remember that saying it came back. Im a sikh who isn't arrogent. u say cast doesnt exist in sikhi thats a lie its everywhere. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayDuKOiRvWw&feature=channel_page
May 19, 2009 - 6:53am PCJ2K

Theodorus Ji, I do not pray

Theodorus Ji,

I do not pray anymore because I know He knows the best and I already said my prayer for a life time but it does not mean that I just sit home and do nothing thinking that He will do whatever He wants. I still do my best and some times I am successful and some other times, I am not. In my life, there hasn't been any major disaster but I do know that even when I was not successful, it worked in my favor.

In Christianity and Islam, it supposedly happens after death or at the time of the death but in Sikhism, it's supposed to happen in this life. So, if it doesn't happen in this life, it will not happen. I don't believe that anybody knows what happens after death.

When it comes to religion and its people, wouldn't you agree that we can judge a religion by the actions of the prophet? So, when we don't even agree with the actions of the prophet, we can not agree with the religion.

May 19, 2009 - 10:27pm Theodorus

Praying and Prophets

PCJ2K ji,

I do not pray for myself, just for others..........

you wrote:
"I don't believe that anybody knows what happens after death."

That is true and probably one of the reasons 'religion' is often called 'a believe'. ;-)

you wrote:
"wouldn't you agree that we can judge a religion by the actions of the prophet?"

I'm not so sure about that because it implies that YOU judge the actions of the prophet. To judge somebody (by his actions) that lived 500 or even much more years ago from your frame of reference of today is to my opinion (almost?) impossible. What is terribly wrong and unacceptable here and now could be very well accepted and even considered mercyfull 1000 years ago (and the other way around). The only way to judge is to have a supreme knowledge of the culture and circumstances the prophet lived in. Leaves undisputed thought that the only one that can truely pose judgement is God as he is the only one that can look into peoples mind.

An other difficulty is the fact that we often do not realy know the actions of the prophet as most often those stories are recorded years after the fact and are at least 'colored' and seldom historically correct.

you wrote:
"So, when we don't even agree with the actions of the prophet, we can not agree with the religion."

You do know the story of Moses? http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/020621/torah.shtml
He did something wrong so he was never to enter the promised land himself. Never the less he is considered one of the major prophets in Christianity, Isam and Judism. He's the one that recieved the "10 commandments" directly from God.

May 17, 2009 - 5:51am arshi (not verified)

Our sins are immeasurable

Theodorous ji you wrote “I know my spirituality isn't perfect at all and I realise chances are slim that it ever will become perfect. Never the less I do hope it will in the end bring me to God. So I will keep trying and I will keep making mistakes” This is very true as we sin all the time, sometimes not even being aware of the act. But we carry on striving for the Truth. You will find this extract from SGGS (Gauree Chaytee, First Mehl: Ang 156) below of great comfort. The translation is mine which I did way back in 1992 - so forgiveness is humbly sought in advance. “MAN'S SINS ARE AS IMMEASURABLE AS THE WATER THAT FILLS THE SEAS AND THE OCEANS. O LORD TAKE MERCY UPON OUR SOULS AND EXTEND A LITTLE PITY TO KEEP THIS MANKIND (LADEN WITH SINS) AFLOAT; FOR WITHOUT THY GRACE, WHICH CAN KEEP STONES AFLOAT, IT WILL FOR SURE DROWN. MAN'S SOUL BURNS IN THE FIRE OF IGNORANCE AND SIN; HIS INNERSELF IS BEING SHREDDED BY UNSEEN SCISSORS OF WORLDLY DESIRES AND VAIN PURSUITS. PRAY NANAK THAT MAN MAY COME TO TERMS WITH THE LORD'S ORDER SO THAT HE MAY FOREVER LIVE BLISSFULLY.” (Translation: ‘Arshi’ 28.6.92). For simplicity I have referred to the masculine gender but, wherever appropriate, this should be read as including the female gender.
May 16, 2009 - 5:58am arshi (not verified)

Your humility comes across

Theodorous ji I followed your thread with PCJ, but for some reason the whole section of your dialogue with him has disappeared from my screen! However, I WAS able to access them from the links you provided in your latest post. Can you please kindly explain what is happening? By the way I am deeply touched by your humility and candidness. I could not help noticing it as I have just finished writing an article on Ego. Humility is the hallmark of the House of Nanak and you are well on the way. May Sat Guru shower his blessings on you.
May 15, 2009 - 2:22pm PCJ2K

Theodorus Ji, Did you notice

Theodorus Ji,

Did you notice that I didn't call you any names but you have called me arrogant, egoistic and obsessed with prostitutes.

First let me ask you this: do you think the world would be better if people communicated using name calling or would it a better place if people communicated in a civilized manner?

Now please think about it. Why is it that I didn't call you any names but you did? Is it because of the cultural influence or is it because of the religious influence?

You have seen Sikhs calling me all kinds of names and Sikhs have even lied about me, even some of the Sikhs holding responsible positions. Is it culture or is it religion which influences them to behave this way? In my opinion, it actually could be both - religion and culture.

People learn how to behave from both religion and culture. Even though in the quote in question, it specifically does not tell Sikhs to go out there and start calling people names like son of prostitutes, Sikhs have done so, precisely based on this particular quote because people often try to follow footsteps of their gurus and prophets. I posted the link to the article from the old Sikhnet discussion forum. Did you simply ignore the article? If gurus and prophets cared about the humanity, they would not have done anything that would cause their followers to go ahead and hurt the other members of this humanity. I have also given other examples, such as Muslims marrying little children because their prophets did so and Muslim men having right to rape their wives. What's so good about this?

Let me ask you this: What would be wrong if the same was said in the following manner?

"Someone who does not acknowledge The Creator of this universe is like a son of who does not acknowledge his biological father." What was so important for the guru to compare this person to a son of a prostitute? For whatever reason, you may not have any problem with calling someone son of a prostitute or comparing someone to a son of a prostitute but this is not very civil and I do have problem with it.

Another thing is that you mentioned that because of people like me you lost faith in Christianity. How could it be people like me? If you lost faith in a religion because the religious people thought they were always right, how could you lose faith in a religion if I thought I were right when I myself don't even believe in religion? Would you lose faith in my faith, which is faith in The Lord - The Perfection - only?

May 15, 2009 - 9:55pm Theodorus

Unintentional Namecalling

PCJ2K ji,

You write:
"Did you notice that I didn't call you any names but you have called me arrogant, egoistic and obsessed with prostitutes."
I am aware I called you arrogant, egoistic and obsessed. Name calling to me is to groundlessly attribute somebody with not so nice characteristics. Arrogance, Egoism and Obsession are not so nice characteristics I agree, but to my opinion I did ground then in my messages. To be sure of that I looked them all up:

http://www.sikhnet.com/node/2064/5910#comment-5910
"You seem to have something with 'prostitutes' as these are the only lines in SGGS that use these words."
"I don't know, I really do not understand you obviously obsession with 'prostitutes'. I just don't get it."
http://www.sikhnet.com/node/2064/5938#comment-5938
"You are right but it still doesn't explain your 'obsession' with prostitutes or your state of mind in persisting on these two examples to show the state of mind of the Sikh Guru's."
http://www.sikhnet.com/node/2064/5950#comment-5950
"I'm not suggesting that my view on things is that balanced but yours is very skewed. And what is even worse is that your stubborness (or EGO) is preventing you from seeing reason in others (let alone to feel compassion for them)."
http://www.sikhnet.com/node/2064/6013#comment-6013
"You again hijack the truth by promoting you perception to THE truth. Please try to remember that what you percieve to be true is ONLY your true not mine. I admit that I do not know the truth about a lot of things you seem to be very certain about. It is again your ego that plays a trick on you ;-)"
http://www.sikhnet.com/node/2064/6046#comment-6046
"I still wonder why you keep using just this one example as an arguement. Somehow your mind seem to be fixed on this one and cannot come round to it."
"I think claiming to know anything with a certainty like that is sheer arrogance (EGO?)."
http://www.sikhnet.com/node/2064/6083#comment-6083
"The word "better" in this sentence portrayes you arrogance as You and only You seem to be the judge of "better". If you cannot see the arrogance in than You have very little self knowledge."

If you percieve this as name calling and beyond civelised argumentation then I sincerely apologize. You can blame it on my culture but ultimatly I'm that one that wrote all this. So sorry if I hurt your feelings.

You write:
"Even though in the quote in question, it specifically does not tell Sikhs to go out there and start calling people names like son of prostitutes, Sikhs have done so, precisely based on this particular quote because people often try to follow footsteps of their gurus and prophets."
and
"Let me ask you this: What would be wrong if the same was said in the following manner?"

Well nothing actuall but sometimes 'strong' words are needed to convey a message. It is very sad that people sometimes misunderstand these kind of words.

You write:
"I posted the link to the article from the old Sikhnet discussion forum. Did you simply ignore the article?"

To be honest I 'missed' it so I just looked it up. Do you really expect me to read throught over 100 messages and comment on that? By reading the first message I know and realise this is somehow important for you. So I will see what I can do but it will have to wait until I have the time to go through it. Sorry for that.

You write:
"Another thing is that you mentioned that because of people like me you lost faith in Christianity. How could it be people like me?"

The "like you" refers to the similarity I see between you and 'those people'. Off course they are different from you in that you do not confess to a religion and they do. The similarity is that you, as they did, pretent to know the truth and keep throwing that in my face. That is were the similarity ends. So, no I cannot loose my faith because of you. With this similarity I just wanted to show you that by 'behaving' (or going about) the way you do you won't convince (or change) people but sooner drive people away from you so you'll end up 'yelling in the desert' (I do not know if that is an english expression but I didn't want to use 'preaching for an empty church')

You wrote:
"you may not have any problem with calling someone son of a prostitute or comparing someone to a son of a prostitute but this is not very civil and I do have problem with it."

In my book there is a big difference between "calling someone son of a prostitue" (that realy is namecalling) and "comparing someone to a son of a prostitute." but again that might be culturally bound.

May 16, 2009 - 10:05am PCJ2K

Well sir, I mentioned the

Well sir, I mentioned the name calling to describe how we, as humans, are different. I didn't mention it asking for an apology. I simply mentioned this to describe how religion and culture both have influence on our personality.

Anyways, I will stick with civilized behavior and I not going to spend too much time on this because I know nobody can convince me that we can not make strong point without such analogy. Writing is part of my job and even though I may not come across as a strong writer here on the web, I am a pretty good writer when it comes to school and work and I know how to make strong points without using this kind of analogy. So, I got nothing to lose.

When we use bad terminology, it usually means that we lack communication skills. When we can not find the appropriate word for something, we use the bad words. But I know gurus used such a large vocabulary. So, I know they didn't lack communication skills.

It would not matter to me even if everybody left me, I would not want to abandon The Truth. Plus, this is only virtual anyways. In real life, I am surrounded by a huge group of wonderful people. There is only one Sikh in my group except my own family of course. So, you don't have to be a Sikh in order to be a wonderful person. There are all kinds of people in my group - Whites, Blacks, and Browns, Believers and so-called non Believers and many people with not so traditional orientation. Some are tall, others are short and yet others are of medium height but one thing they all have in common and that is that they are all wonderful people.

Going back to the article posted by Gitika on the old Sikhnet forum. Gitika comes from a Hindu family. I could be wrong that rest of her family is Hindu and she converted to Sikhism not too many years ago. But it seems like that she often got carried away and posted stuff she normally wouldn't post. Knowing how she writes, I know she didn't write the article but she copied and pasted from somewhere else and she often didn't mention the source.

http://fateh.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion.nsf/by+topic/7D97531239CA9F5B872574170050E84F!OpenDocument

The article says that Amritdharis are the only Sikhs. It also says that others, non-Amritdharis, who refer to themselves as Sikhs, are often referred to as with different names and Saakat was one of the them. Then the author writes the quote from The Granth saying that a Saakat is like a prostitute's son.

c. Saakat: Infidel

Saakat Suaan Kaheeyey Baho lobhee, Baho Durmat Mael Bhareejey. (ang1326)
The dog like infidel is said to be very avaricious and is full to the brim of evil thoughts.

Saakat Besuva Poot Ninaam (ang1239)
The infidel is nameless like a prostitute's son.

In other words, 85% of the people who consider themselves Sikhs are like sons of prostitutes. This is a fact that Amrtidharis are not the only ones who believe in the God. Believing in The Almighty Lord is not just saying that you believe in Him. But your actions should show that you believe in Him.

Everybody in this universe, who believes in truth believes in The Lord - The Ultimate Truth. Everybody in this universe is looking for some sort of ultimate truth. That Ultimate Truth is The Law established by The Creator when He/She/It created the universe.

So basically, the term Saakat can not be used toward anybody that I know of but the gurus have given some of their followers like the author in the article above reasons to refer to others as Saakat and compare them as sons of prostitutes. This is pretty sad that it comes from something Sikhs revere and I knew it could never be changed. So, the only option I had was to leave Sikhism.

I know you might say that you feel sorry for me or you pity me. But when you believe in The Ultimate Truth, everything else is trivial.

Only Truth matters...

May 16, 2009 - 11:45am Theodorus

My truth

PCJ2K ji,

You wrote:
"I didn't mention it asking for an apology. I simply mentioned this to describe how religion and culture both have influence on our personality."
There is much more that influences my personality but that is not the point. In this case I think I'm the one to decide if an apology is needed or not.

I do not want to accuse you of lying ;-) but you wrote:

"Saakat Besuva Poot Ninaam (ang1239)
The infidel is nameless like a prostitute's son."
in: http://www.sikhnet.com/news/i-remember#comment-6121

This should be page 239 I think as you stated earlier:
"Page 239, Line 4
साकत बेसुआ पूत निनाम ॥३॥
Sākaṯ besu▫ā pūṯ ninām. ||3||
The faithless cynic is nameless, like the prostitute's son. ||3||
Guru Arjan Dev - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok"
in: http://www.sikhnet.com/node/2064/5888#comment-5888

I couldn't help noticing the big difference in the translation of the same Gurbani sentence. As such a good writer you should notice the difference; The first one (without the comma) could be called name calling the second one (with the comma) is a mere comparision in that both (the faithless cynic and the prostiture's son) do not know their fathers name (I presume Ninaam consists of Ni and Naam and I think to have learned that Naam is much much more than just the english 'name').

I found the second tranlation in
http://fateh.sikhnet.com/sggs/translation/0239.html
and in
http://www.sikhs.org/english/frame.html
I couldn't find the first translation anywhere?

As for:
http://fateh.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion.nsf/by+topic/7D97531239CA9F5B872574170050E84F!OpenDocument
I've read the original message and stumbled upon
"...and has full faith in the Amrit of the Tenth Guru etc."
Which I recognized as a part of the Rehat Maryada. It actually says:
" Any human being who faithfully believes in the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, etc."
I have already disputed the explenation of this rule as I myself claim to faithfully believe in that without doing amrit myself as I believe in it so much that I know that I'm not worthy of taking amrit (at this moment at least, I'm working towards it.).

Again a big difference in translation "has full faith in the Amrit" or "faithfully believes in" are two different things.
As far as I know the second one is the official one approved by the SGPC
http://sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_one.html

I do have to confess though that I'm rather language impaired as I never had good grades for any of my (native nor foreign) language classes. As English is a language I only learned from 4 years highschool I might be wrong.
As I'm nowhere when it comes to Gurbani either I am realy not able to judge any of the translations.

As you see above the 'truth' about the text isn't very clear (to me at least).

But I think all this is way behind you as you state:
"Anyways, I will stick with civilized behavior and I not going to spend too much time on this because I know nobody can convince me....." (that is cristal clear...)

"It would not matter to me even if everybody left me, I would not want to abandon The Truth. Plus, this is only virtual anyways." (I always thought I was real.....)

"So basically, the term Saakat can not be used toward anybody that I know of but the gurus have given some of their followers like the author in the article above reasons to refer to others as Saakat and compare them as sons of prostitutes. This is pretty sad that it comes from something Sikhs revere and I knew it could never be changed. So, the only option I had was to leave Sikhism."
(This is realy silly as it is like buying a new car being full with enthousiam about it. Then finding a tiny scratch at in the paint and trashing the whole car away as useless garbage, but again that is my opinion)

PCJ2K, In response to:
"I know you might say that you feel sorry for me or you pity me. But when you believe in The Ultimate Truth, everything else is trivial."
I could say that I'm happy for you but that would be a lie and you said "Only Truth matters..."
So to be truthfull I need to say that I do feel sorry for you specially since you feel so strongly about truth while you seem to be caught in a web of dubious (or at least questionable) translations, half truths and yes .... you own stubbornness. I do not want to offend you by this but you ask for the truth and this is mine.

May 17, 2009 - 7:33am PCJ2K

Theodorus Ji, So far, you

Theodorus Ji,

So far, you could not accuse me of providing you different translation because I have simply copied and pasted the translation posted by someone else, namely by Gitika and the other translation was from a Sikh website...

I am going to provide you with translation now. In gurmukhi, it says: Sākaṯ besu▫ā pūṯ ninām. ||3||

Saakat means infidel, besua means a prostitute, put means son and I have never heard this word before but according to the website ( http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.dictionary?Param=%E0%A8%A8%E0%A... ) , ninam means someone without a name.

So it would be pretty difficult to provide exact translation because in Gurmukhi, it only says Infidel Prostitute's son without name. So, I would translate it as "An Infidel is nameless like a prostitute's son". But there is no guarantee that it is the proper translation because we don't know what gurus were thinking about at the time they wrote this.

But it seems like we are looking at two different things in the article posted by Gitika. You are looking at the definition of a Sikh and I am looking at that fact someone dares to disrespect 85% of the people who consider themselves Sikh by comparing them to sons of prostitutes. It's religions that give people excuses to do this kind of stuff.

Spirituality is not like a car. The car will still take you around even if it isn't perfect but you are getting nowhere if spirituality isn't perfect.

No, you shouldn't feel sorry for me for ditching a religion, I am not spiritually harming myself. When I know better way of doing things, it's better to do them in my way...

May 16, 2009 - 6:00am arshi (not verified)

Your humility comes across

Theodorous ji I followed your thread with PCJ, but for some reason the whole section of your dialogue with him has disappeared from my screen! However, I was able to access them from the links you provided in your latest post. Can you kindly explain what is happening? By the way I am deeply touched by your humility and candidness. I could not help noticing it as I have just finished writing an article on Ego. Humility is the hallmark of the House of Nanak and you are well on the way. May Sat Guru shower his blessings on you.
May 16, 2009 - 11:53am Theodorus

I lost it too.

arshi ji,

I too lost the thread as it somehow got lost between page 2 and 3 of the replies to this article. I found it back by a. loggin in
b. changing the settings to "Threaded list - collapsed" and "200 comments per page"
(setting are at the bottom of the page)

Thank you for your compliment (as I presume it is one) but somehow I think it doesn't realy help in getting my EGO down to manageble proportions again ;-).

Besides that candidness can be percieved as arrogance and/or sarcasm too. So I'm lucky you do not percieve it as such. I know I have to be carefull with that.

May 16, 2009 - 12:35pm arshi (not verified)

Must give credit where it is due

Theodorus ji, many thanks for your prompt response. I meant every word of the humility vibes I felt, with total sincerity. I spent quite a lot of time researching and writing a 7 page article on HUNKAAR (EGO) recently, so I think I know a little bit about the topic. This completed the fifth and the final of the ‘five evils’ mentioned by the Sikh Gurus, the fifth being the hardest to overcome/control. I found that even the realization of achieving humility fires up ego all over again – so I appreciate your point of taking compliments with caution. However, there is so much criticism and disagreements amongst human beings that we forget to compliment good conduct and decent values. Incidentally I have the thread back as well – all I did was go through the ‘disk clean up’ procedure. I tried the ‘compressing and comments per page’ route but to no avail. Next time I will try and follow your sequence.
May 14, 2009 - 4:51pm Sikh-learner

Thanks alot "sach"

Thanks alot "sach" veerji.....For taking time to write down the whole truth , Being a Sikh I do appreciate your true knowledge about Indian political history....I was thinking that only Myself in the battle against lies and propaganda, but after giving so much information and by asking straight question to hindu community, You have proved that you are true (sachha) Sikh and human being....I would like to thanks to you with folded hands for understanging the pains of the Sikhs, specialy who were suffered in 1984 genocide..... Waheguru bless you and your family !!!!! WGJK WGJKF
May 15, 2009 - 1:28pm Romesh Kumar

Are non-sikhs Indians immune

Are non-sikhs Indians immune to all and every kind of pains ? Are they not human beings ?
May 14, 2009 - 4:08pm sach

Reply to "sukoot", "RK"

To ”sukoot”…….M.K Gandhi was murdered by a fanatic Hindu. Shall I say then that all Hindus are fanatics or terrorists? Rajiv Gandhi was murdered by a Tamil Hindu woman. Does that mean that all Hindu Tamils are terrorists? After the death of Indian PM, all Sikhs are now hated and branded as terrorists. Why? Some more information for you – as you don´t seem to know the history of India and especially the genealogy of the Nehru family this information must come as a shock for you ie. Sanjay Gandhi was not the son of Firoz Khan(usually known as Gandhi) but the son of a certain Mohammed Yunus – in other words an illegitimate son of the PM. Harilal Gandhi was the son of Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi who rejected Hinduism and embraced Islam and was given the forename of Abdullah. Did you know that? He must have come to the conclusion that there must be something radically wrong with the religion of his father – otherwise he wouldn´t have renounced the religion of his forefathers? What is the problem with you chaps? Why are you chaps trying to put slanderous and spiteful remarks against all the innocent Sikhs? Just let us know. We are millions who would like to know the answer. If you want to put something at this website, don´t just come with a load of rubbish – check your material before putting it in print. Now to you RK. How many people had access to Internet during 1984? So stop putting your lies on this website. There are millions of Indians even today who can hardly make their both hands meet. Don´t tell me this is not true. The whole world knows about this. They can hardly even buy newspapers. You wrote in your post of May 7 “Everyone was aware of that. No one is interested in the religion of capapable rulers/politicians. Their religion/dharma – is to rule over the masses.” Just bullshit. Why was MK Gandhi interested in religion? Why did he force the PM to change the surname from Khan to Gandhi? Just to mislead the illiterate masses to the effect that Nehru´s daughter is Hindu and not Muslim. Don´t tell me otherwise. Even this person “sukoot” had not the foggiest idea about your “Everyone was aware of that………” Just stop putting your lies on this website. Just keep your lies to yourself. Do you get kick out of putting incorrect material here? You know what? – the readers at this site are amused by reading your trash. No one takes you seriously. The only thing that exists in your mind and your types is to hate your saviours. Did that hurt you? Now that you have admitted that the PM of India was a Muslim woman, then my question is: Do you think if the masses had known of this “Everyone was aware of that………….”, the genocide of the thousands of innocent Sikhs would have been avoided? My theory is – yes. According to what I have read nearly 15000 innocent Sikhs were murdered in broad daylight in cities like Delhi, Kanpur and so on by the supporters of the PM and the police did nothing! Was it necessary to put the might of the Indian army (70000!!) against a handful of Sikhs? Why was the reference library of the Sikhs put on fire? Why were they ( the citizens of India) not starved out? Was it justified to use the tanks against a handful of people!? Even the liberator of Bangladesh – Lt.Gen Jagjit Singh Aurora was against this Operation Blue Star. But his advice was ignored. Why? Why nearly forty other Sikh Gurdwaras were attacked at the same time during this Operation Blue Star!? For what reason.? Was Sant Bhindrawhale at these Gurdwaras at the same time? Why was this Operation Blue Star planed on the martyrdom day of Guru Arjun Dev Ji? Questions are innumerable but I doubt if we will ever get the honest answers. Just give me and to other readers of this site honest answers. You like to poke your nose in every matter. I expect honest answers from you because you are using the photo of Sri Darbar Sahib on your post. Can we read the word?: Maaf karna(sorry). In my earlier post of May 5 I had some questions to you which you never answered. I am putting these questions again. Q.1 Was it right of the Hindus when they saw innocent Sikhs burning and trembling saying: Look they are dancing bhangra? How could they utter such shameful utterances? SHAME. SHAME. Q.2 Was it right of the police to force the innocent Sikhs who were taken as prisoners and were made to drink the urine as Amrit? Making fun of Amrit is unforgivable. The Sikhs will never forget this. Do you feel ashamed on their behalf or not? Can you ever assess the gravity of this unforgivable tragedy of the innocent Sikhs? Their only “crime” was that they were Sikhs – the saviours of the Hindus. Give us honest answers. Let me play with the thought that a handful of Muslims have put some Hindus on fire and let me say that a couple of Amritdhari Sikhs happen to see this. Do you think they would have turned the faces to the other side? I can assure you that an Amritdhari Sikh will never ever turn the face away. It is the moral duty of an Amritdhari Sikh to help the weak even at the cost of his/her own life. I might as well add that one need not be an Amritdhari Sikh who will help the destitute. Even the non-baptised Sikhs will never turn the face away from helping the weak. This is in our genes. In this fictitious case they would have saved the lives of the Hindus and secondly they would never have lowered themselves so low as to say eg. : Look they are dancing Kathakali dance. Remember this and tell your Hindu friends that an Amritdhari Sikh who has a Kara on his/her right arm and Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji´s Kirpan will NEVER EVER lower to the level of the DEVILS. HE/SHE WILL OFFER HIS/HER LIFE TO SAVE THE WEAK. Such is the character of the saviour of the Hindus – the Khalsas. Have not thousands of Sikhs shed their precious blood on the dharti of India? Had not the Sikhs stood against certain cruel Moghuls, ( Jehangir, Aurangzeb etc) the whole of India would have been Muslim today. Just accept the fact. Or is it that you don´t want to know the truth? Another thing.You (your post of May 12 to Sikh-learner) don´t have the right to ask any one to leave the country just because you don´t like to read the truth. If the millions of the starving masses had access to Internet, I am sure they wouldn´t hesitate at all to express their grievances. Do you get it? Would you ask them in that case they should leave the country? If you can look into the seeds of time, and say which will grow and which will not, then know this once and for all: the grain of the Khalsa shall grow for EVER! No force on earth can ever destroy them. The Brahmins are trying their best to destroy the Sikh faith, but they will never succeed in their vile efforts. I have some very forceful remedies to solace your troubled mind. Listen to: Japji Sahib, Sri Sukhmani Sahibji. I am sure your life will be transformed from the hater of the Sikhs to the lover of the Sikhs and all mankind. Such is the power of Gurbani. Read an article of Nirvair Kaur(at SikhiWiki) who was suffering from fibromyalgia. She could hardly lift her arms above her head for more than 11 seconds. The title of the article is: The Miracle of Japji Sahib. Japji Sahib transformed her life completely. Read Japji Sahib and Sri Sukhmani Sahib and your mind will be solaced. Another thing I may let you know and that is: one of my best friends is a Hindu. His views are diametrically opposed to yours. Thank goodness my “brother” has views which any Sikh would cherish to hear him. At his home the largest photo is not of any Hindu diety or god, but that of Sri Baba Nanak Dev Ji. The following is for my Sikh brothers and sisters. I would like to quote once again what writer Milan Kundera wrote in his book entitled – The Book of Laughter and Forgetting: “The first step in liquidating a people is to erase its memory. Destroy its books, its culture, its history. Then have somebody write new books, manufacture a new culture, invent a new history. Before long that nation will begin to forget what it is and what it was……….The struggle of man against power is the struggle of memory against forgetting”. This is what the Brahmins are doing. They are just jealous of this great religion of the Sikhs – a religion which believes in the welfare of all irrespective of caste, ethnicity or religion and so on. It is therefore my earnest request to all Sikhs that we should not forget our glorious past. It is of the utmost importance that our children be taught our true history before it is distorted by the enemies of the Sikhs. We should not make them hate any one but we should make them fighters of injustice. Even Bhai Kanaya gave water to the enemies. Let them know the true character and psyche of a Sikh. Make them not accept any humiliation or molestation. Make them be proud to be Sikhs – especially now when the people whom we saved have become our enemies. Make them aware of the enormous sacrifices of our shaheeds. Every Sikh youngster must know the fact that we struggled against the Mughals. They tried to destroy the Sikhs but never succeeded. They tried to convert the Sikhs to Islam but never succeeded. Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji became shaheed for the sake of the Hindus. Let every child know about our shaheeds. The Hindus are trying to convert the Sikhs to Hinduism but they will never succeed. Let every Sikh youngsters know the meaning of every word of Sikh Ardas. Inculcate in them such a spirit that they will very proudly say: We are Guru Gobind Singh Ji´s Sikhs who stand for right cause and will fight to eradicate injustice at any price. Encourage them to learn the martial arts. Let every Sikh girl and boy learn Gatka. Look what Bibi Rashpal Kaur has achieved. Read on this website about her. Let there be a Gatka Club in every village, town and city. Let us not sit back and think that “84” will not happen again. Let our youngsters don turbans once again. Is there anything grandeur to look upon than the turban of the Sikhs? Answer: No! Look at the Sikh soldiers! Don´t they look impressive in their turbans? They really look great. Look at the photo of Gen. Subegh Singh. Doesn´t he look impressive? Even the so called puthi pagh looks great! Save our children from cigs., drinks and worst of all drugs. Save them from the trash of Bollywood films. Teach them to listen and understand the Sachi Bani and make them once brave Sikhs. Waheguruji Ka Khalsa Waheguruji Ki Fateh.
May 15, 2009 - 1:44am Romesh Kumar

Sach.............., You are

Sach.............., You are repeating the questions which I have already answered. I am not affiliated to any political party nor I am loyal to any political family in particular. They were and are political figures of international fame. Religion,character,moral/social/family values etc have always been the assets of poor and middle class people like us NOT THOSE OF HIGH PROFILE FIGURES, POLITICIANS AND RULERS. Nobody talks of how many wives Maharaja Ranjit Singh ( only and real sikh ruler ) had and how many of them committed "sati" on his death, how many of them were muslims,christians,hindus or others. Nobody wants to know whether his son Duleep Singh was a christian or sikh. Nobody wants to know the same about Maharaja of Patiala, his wives and their matrimonial alliance with Hindu ruling families. Nobody is interested what is going on between Capt Amrinder Singh and Aroosa Alam Khan of napakistan. Nobody wants to know who did stars like priya rajbans kaur,neetu singh,poonam dhillon, amrita singh and many others marry. Nobody wants to know that famous writer/producer/director Rajender Singh Bedi, a turbaned and bearded sikh used to smoke in public. Nobody wants to know who did Dr Manmohan Singh's and famous sikh writer Khushwant Singh's daughters marry. Why did Menka Anand ( a sikh ) marry the son of a muslim and hindu/brahaman-turned-muslim mother ? Which religion and political party she and her son follow now ? Who bothers to ask where Sukhbir Singh Badal was when his father was roasting his political bread by attending the bhogs of terrorists gunned down by security forces. He was studying in safe heavens in HP and U.S. Why have they now joined hands with socalled and self-proclaimed HINDU party, BJP ? Does any sikh in the world have courage to go and ask Gen (rtd) J.J. Singh of why does he trim his beard ? I do hope, it answers all your questions about the religions and personal lives of gandhis,nehrus,high profile people and celebrities. We use to and should look at their positive contribution as leaders of the masses or their talents in the field they were/are. To think and talk of their personal and private lives are clear symptoms of mental sickness. Since they were/are not angels or saints ( nor they claimed/claim to be ) so they have committed blunders and mistakes also. Learn to live and let live. Read my post to KabirSingh and reply ( also include your views and findings on Kanishka bombing, culprits and justice) before I reply some points you have raised in your today's post except one that, "Circumstances and happenings which led to op blue star and the way PM was assasinated by guards followed by celebration by sikh community in streets and gurdwaras would have drawn the same reaction regardless of religious background of him/her". I am 1000% sure of it. I DO HOPE THAT YOU DO BELIVE THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING HAPPENING IN PUNJAB BEFORE OP. BLUE STAR. IT WAS NOT CARRIED OUT FOR A FUN. I agree that there were lapses in strategy and action as army was and is not meant and prepared for fighting in confined spaces with invisible targets hidding in advantageous locations/positions. It is in that kind of situation army resorts to shelling. And never forget that army/police people are also like you and me, bread winners of parents,bro/sis and children, hence should not be expected to be sitting ducks. . Submitted by Romesh Kumar on Sun, 05/10/2009 - 14:24. KabirSingh........., It is only an insane,mad,lunatic or a monster brain who can justify,support or commend 84 anti-sikh riots. Mentioning course of events and flash points behind it does not mean justification or support. I can strongly believe that you were not in Punjab from late 70s to early 90s. Had it been so, you would have at least not asked for a "testimony". I was in Punjab, based at Ludhiana/Pathakot/Amritsar/Chandigarh in a job demanding daily extensive travelling throught the state. I have seen and experienced "Khalsa Raj" by myself. Your asking for testimony is same act of applyig salt on wounds what you and few others are ignorantly accusing others of. Being from a joint hindu/sikh family I had deeper access to hearts and minds of common sikhs and what was happening around us. Discriminate killing of hindus in buses in full view of their female relatives and children, discriminate killing of hindus who they considered hurdle in their way, bullying common hindus, kidnappings of rich hindus and extortions led to displacement of tens of thousands of hindus from Punjab. They moved to other states selling their assets and establishments at throw away prices. Some of sikh males used to ask their sikh friends openly and loudly in the presence of hindus... "what is today's score"? which meant that how many hindus ('lalas' in their language) are killed today. INSPITE OF ALL THESE HAPPENINGS IN PUNJAB THERE WAS NO VIOLENT REACTION AGAINST SIKHS LIVING OUTSIDE PUNJAB. It was followed by indiscriminate killings of hindus and sikhs whosoever do not fall inline with their ideology, dress code in schools, color code for sign-boards of business establishments, forcible and unlawful (gun point) ban on selling tobacco and alcohal, publically insult to sikhs who do not grow flowing beards or do not tie turbans of a particular color, forcibly occupying gurdwaras, forcible shelters in the homes of innocent sikhs making them targets and prey to police investigations. I have to be honest that there were no rape or molestation incidents heard related to these activities. But their immoral activities were there within their own circles/ranks, e.g. surinder singh sodhi was killed outside darbar Sahib by none other than the woman (baljit kaur or so), he had kidnapped and raped.She was instantly kidnapped to inside the complex and her whereabouts were not known again. DIG, Amarjeet Singh Atwal was shot dead near darshni deodhi while he was still holding parsad in his hands by sniper from inside Akal Takht Sahib. Many incidents of tortures and killings of suspects/police informer sikhs inside complex have been heard. Socalled black-cats actually came in being in late 80s. They were none other than arrested/interrogated terrorists who begged for life ( than being killed in fake encounters) and who were also disillusioned with movement on knowing real character and goals of terrorists. Who will and can give this testimony and against who and where ???? It is near impossible in cases related to terrorism and rioting. Budhism and Jainism had nothing new to present,offer,give or display to existing hinduism. It was like old wine in new bottle. Though same applies to sikhism BUT sikh gurus and their contemporary followers followed by immediate descendents PRACTICALISED the philosophy which MATTERS and makes the difference. Budhism still spread from Afghanistan to far east, why did sikhism not ? Please reply.
May 13, 2009 - 8:50am Sikh-learner

Thanks, RK

R.K……Your great radical hindu indian system creates frustration in the other minoritie like, muslims, sikhs, christian and your own low caste Hindus too……First regret about all the innocents people, those who were killed or being killed by your hindu govt. for making hindu raj…….If you realy concern about regret, Ask justice for 1984 sikh victims, 2002 mulims genocide in gujurat, Presently killing of christian……..Before loving to country like india, first see the all the genocides of minorities by your Indian polital system…for doing this you have to go above your hindu religion to see the truth/facts…But I know that hindus of hindustan can’ t see it all…Its like to see the self as criminals in the front of mirror….Regarding soul. I would say “ I DON’T FEAR THE PHYSICAL DEATH, I DO FEAR THE THE DEATH OF MY CONSIOUSNESS OF MY SOUL”….Unfortunately people like you born with dead and unconsious soul….Thats why In 1984 Nov., Innocent Sikhs burnt dead bodies were eating by dogs in the fake democratic country capital” NEW DELHI”……. Sikhs didn’t kicked the idea of independence....BECAUSE SIKHISM WAS BORN DUE TO INJUSTICE, Because we here talking about it, And movement is still alive after 25 years, Just it need to ignite the fire…and untill Radical hindu people like you are presence with in our community, website, on every intersections, bus-stops, public places……… Reagrding independence, Can you tell me how long time took to got independence for India?, My friend it was more than 100 years….So for Sikhs its only 25 years has been passed…..If any thing comes in the form of words like khalistan, then 1 day it will become true…Past is witness of it………….
May 12, 2009 - 5:43pm Sikh-learner

Sikh struggle !!!

We havent left punjab at all, untill all my punjabi sikh brothers AND sisters will be saved from the future genocide by radical (you)hindus....You don't have support here from a single member nor in this article neither in prevoius articals..."HATH KANGAN KO AARSI KYA".......UNDERSTAN RK " MERI BILLI MUJHE HE MYON".....You can check to to moderators/owners of the this site, before you, from how long I have been the member of this site..... If you are realy concern about the sikhs first get justice from youe hindu govt. for sikhs.....Our struggle is still continew for mere pyre punjab.....Regarding leaving this site, I would say that people like you (RSS -RASHTRA SARA SHARMSAR), tommorow may ask to leave this site to the origantor of this site my elder brother Gurumutak singh, Because he and lots of sikhs LIKE hime doesn't leave in punjab !!!!!..........Thanks alot to RK TO GIVE ME OPPORTUNITY TO EXPRESS MY FACTS TO PROVE YOU AS RSS AGENT WITH HIDDEN AGENDA!!!!! "MUNH MEIN RAM, BAGAL MEIN CHURI" ASTEEN KEY SAMP"......
May 13, 2009 - 8:10am Romesh Kumar

Sikh-learner.................

Sikh-learner.................., You miserably failed to learn, finally you proved to be a thickminded and brainwashed, failed and frustrated creature. I really regret to land in a discussion with abnormal character. This is anonymity of internet but your language, text and character has close similiarity with two or more abnormal characters in this forum. It may be you alone using more than one id's. I am the only member whose agenda is written on the wall> EVERYONE SHOULD DO DEEP INTROSPECTION AND STOP BLAMES AND COUNTER BLAMES and CLAIMS AND COUNTER-CLAIMS< As long as my soul and conscience is supporting me, I am in majority and do not need the support of any individual/s or organisation/s. What is the agenda of your socalled struggle for Punjab ? Is it not talibanisation ? I have seen part of that happening. 99.9% of sikhs kicked and crushed that agenda to beyond recognition and beyond re-emerging condition. Believe me or not, YOU WILL NEVER EVER SUCCEED. ALSO CONVEY THIS MESSAGE TO YOUR LIKEMINDED COMING GENERATIONS. Since you are a brainwashed creature so stick also looks like a SAMP to you.
May 12, 2009 - 10:53am Sikh-learner

Thanks Borther Nimana !!!

Thanks alot brtother Nimana, I apreciate you for undertanding the whole concepet of radical hindu ideology....These all radical are paid by GOI or RSS...But being true Sikhs, For the Sikhi future and safety of our next genration, we have to to do Security for our Sikh issues by self "voluntierly"...considere LIKE"SEWA"... Its my request to all true sikhs, whenever any suspiesious agenda holder person attack on any sikhs, we have attack/reply all together.......For sikhs, ourselves don't think that its fight between 2 members, We should think that its attack on our culture, religion, and integraty....
May 12, 2009 - 4:48am Sikh-learner

RK.....UN-LOGIC

RK, You need to go from this website.....Your prescence here is a aganda itself ...Because no one is supporting your fact and every one is apposing you, but still you are arguing with everyone un-logicaly....From whole thread did you see or findany response that is favouring your comments????not single one, But still you are like DHEETH hindu, who are implementing your false/fake facts to the the sikh...Perfect example of RSS agent !!!!!!....WHEN YOU CAN'T ARGUE about the facts or questions, we asked here, then you start abusing others by saying leave india !!!
May 12, 2009 - 11:03am Romesh Kumar

Sikh-learner..............,

Sikh-learner.............., Since you claim to be a learner then learn to learn and think something positive. I am not here to please or appease members nor to look for votes. I am here to confront and counter-argue the false propaganda best to my knowlede and capacity. This misconceived propaganda is causing adverse effects on the hearts,minds and brains of all Indians regardless of their religious faith in general and innocent and ignorant sikh youth in Punjab in particular. Some corrupt and opportunist sikh politicians, some NRI sikhs who have never been to Punjab or have abandoned Punjab for their worldly comforts in west and some criminal-minded sikhs who have nothing to do with good or bad of community have been misguiding sikh youth in Punjab who otherwise are hardworking,brilliant and career-oriented respectable citizens from respectable families. It creates communal hatred and everyone gets affected. I have no right,power,authority or qualification to ask an Indian citizen to leave India !!! I am just like you, son of same soil. It is just an answer to a question when someone is so uncomfortable with india,hindus, goi and so on which is affecting his/her heart, mind and brain. It is better for him/her to leave that place for a better place or try to look into the root causes of problems unbiasedly.
May 12, 2009 - 12:45pm Sikh-learner

RK...the Root cause

RK, Before singing a song of fake Indian democracy, First ask to stop the genocides of the minority in India by your Hindu govt. and then ask about justice from past killing of the Sikhs in 1984…. 25 years have been passed and no justice for Sikhs, Muslims, Christians, and the culprits are Member of parliament, ministers in the Indian govt. instead of jail/hang to death!!!!…Why????? Your presences self is propaganda for saving the culprits like tytler, sajjan kumar (Romesh Kumar brother)…..OK, to make you happy, I sing with you “ Rehaney ko roti nahin, na rehney ko makan, SAO (100) MEIN SE 99 BEYEEMAN, Phir bhi mera bharat mahan”..happy now !!!! Before singing a songs of India, first ask your Hindu govt., recently why did your Hindu govt. of India refused to open the offices of HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS LIKE “AMNEASTY INTERNATIONAL”??????…Why they are afraid of giving them permission to open their offices in India??????…Because if they give the permission, then real ugly face of India will disclose to the world !!!!! Regarding NRI Sikhs, they think logical and point of humanity !!!!they think that if in western countries like, USA,UK, CANADA….If Human being can leave peace full with their fundamental rights, then why not in India???? …But root cause is your radical hindu govt..!!!!…Regarding soil issue, I would like to say you, no country or its soil is bad, It’s the Bad system (radical fundamentalist hindu govt) is the cause of genocide/massacre………..Can you leave this website, here you are unwanted guest??? I hope not, because you can only ask minorities to leave India without justice???? Root cause is yourself (Hindu) of all the problems among Sikhs, Muslims, and Christian!!!!
May 12, 2009 - 1:20pm Romesh Kumar

Sikh-learner...............,

Sikh-learner..............., It is cowards, selfish and opportunists who have abandoned Punjab but claiming to be 'concerned'. Who invited you to this website since you could not face sikh struggle in Punjab ???????? Stop pretending and leave the site the way you have left Punjab.
May 12, 2009 - 12:27pm Romesh Kumar

AND one can equally use many

AND one can equally use many id's with typical sikh names to support and vote himself if he/she has any alleged anti-sikh agenda. I do hope you understand it.
May 12, 2009 - 6:02am nimanna

Brother sikh-learner.

Well as we all know he is a barking dog sitting here as agent of goi or rss he is paid by them for his work on sikhnet.He is not going to go any where because he is watching us as black cat how many sikhs talking about khalistan on sikh net then he send the report to goi.We all try to stop his dirty hindu mind on sikh net and he fight with all of us.There is no question that this stupid hindu is here to brainwash our young kids.He is throwing his dirty hindu mind gand here in sikhnet. We all have to keep our eyes open for this kind of peopels who are holding strong hindu aganda.He dont have guts to answer any question with facts because hindus are not able to face facts with truth.
May 12, 2009 - 12:35pm Romesh Kumar

Nimanna....................,

Nimanna...................., since I know your level of intellect so do not like to argue with you. Can't GOI themselves log in to know that ? wao..................'great intellectual sikh'....why did you run away from Punjab ? Go to Punjab and join the struggle against your hindu enemies.
May 11, 2009 - 4:14pm Sikh-learner

Same tactics...of chankyaniti !!!

Same tactics of highly cheap political, non-diplomatic, convenient to the situation statement for killing/eliminate of sikh/minority is being played by your Radical hindu govt. in India.....You need to see with open eyes and mind.... Regaring 1947 riots , only 1 person was responsible, that was your stuborn/charaterless Pundit chacha Nehru !!! and gandhi (beleiver of cast system in society) who was bent for his stuborn attitude for making him PM of India.......Regarding of personell choice sikhs are not radical/fundmental in matter of Sikhs choice of hair cut (even its against principal of sikhism)...Sikhs are liberal !!!...but what about your radical hindus, those who can't tolerate their own hindu low caste people, when they converted to christianaity......Then they start killing/demolashing churchs and christian priest and their follower......why they cannot tolerate it ????? can you explain your own hindu radical brothers its all about personnel choices !!!!!!...Again I would say to you start all these from your home (Radical hindu)....."APNI KHATT (BED) KE NICHAY PEHLAY SOTTA (STICK) MARO"!!!!..GO TO SOME HINDU WEBSITE (RSS) FIRST ......I hope unfortunenately, nobody is going to listen you overtheir, thatwhy you are here to devoting/wasting your and others time !!!!!
May 12, 2009 - 4:00am Romesh Kumar

Sikh-learner.................

Sikh-learner.................., You do not know; 1. What actually do you want to say. 2. what is your problem. 3. your own factual history 4. what is intellect all about 5. what is actually happening around you 6. history of india and socalled hindus 7. the changes which have come 8. the changes which are coming 9. that 99.9% sikhs are pro-indian and call khalistan a 'joke' 10. that the problems we have been facing in india are just natural and human problems very common in a thick populated and diverse country like India ( except few extreme like communal riots and killings which are being controlled by lerning lessons from past). You seem and sound to be completely brainwashed and kept in a solitary confinement to repeat few lines again and again. Religious freedom to all the citizens is given by 100% but there is no place in india for those who want religion to influence state policy. I had already read and suggested you to go and live in a country of your choice. You and your ideology have no present or future in India. Earlier is better. Good luck.
May 11, 2009 - 8:14am Sikh-learner

Who forgot????

R.k....Sikhisim, budhism, jainism are the off-shooted branches from hindusm from centuries ago....But in 1984 Nov., Hindus forgot it and killed 5000 Sikhs in 48 hours......Can you tell me why bhudhism started from India but couldn't spread in India??? ...because of radical hindus couldn't tolerate it and forced bhudism out of India...hindus have same agenda is still continew with Sikh presently........But with time the methods/way has been changed, but same agenda with radical, fundamentalist ideology.........
May 11, 2009 - 11:36am Romesh Kumar

Sikh-learner.................

Sikh-learner......................., You could'nt get me. This was not my question. You have lost the track and gone astray. (1) Hinduism is not an organised or designated religion( or a recognised religion in ancient India). Have you seen or read word hindu in any of the ancient scriptures claimed by hindus to be their own ? These inhabitants of Indian subcontinent/south asia always believed in God/supernatural power controling the universe. They believed in presence of God in every living and non-living thing or nature as a whole. That is how idol/animal/human/devi/ devta/river/ mountain/water/air/wealth/ music/good and bad devi-devta worship became a way of worshipping. Various scriptures on various subjects were written by various rishis/munis/gurus at different times. These scriptures were either misinterpreted or hidden or surgically interpreted to suit them or miscomposed or misedited by a class of learned people (later known as brahamans) to serve their own interest which resulted in casteim. Introduction of casteism officially made brahamans 'Gods on the earth' for others to dance to their tune. (2) Budhism and Jainism had nothing new to give/offer/present/exhibit//display in a society and place where epics and scriptures like ramayana,mahabharata,vedas,upnishdas and countless others were already written by the sons of this soil. It was like old wine in new bottle, hence could not survive the competetion but spread to the places/regions where people did not know much about spiritualism. (3) Sikhism was the next in this lineage. There is nothing in sikh scriptures which directly or indirectly, in one way or another had not been said or written earlier. BUT......BUT there was a BIG DIFFERENCE an unbridgeable difference, unparalleled and unmatched. That difference was PRACTICALIZATION of philosophy of 'karma' and asociety free of social evils prevalent in society of that time. Great sikh gurus did not only teach and preach, they faced the front, presented themselves to the reality and acted as real leaders and gurus by sacrificing their own generations. It lionised the society and became a revolution which brought the results. This (3) was my question and expected answer from you. My concern and bottom line is about beyond proportions dilution and erosion of that DIFFERENCE and PRINCIPLES. Is it not hindus who followed sikh gurus ? Why are they not following now ? My dear, deep introspection on part of all the parties is need of the hour.
May 11, 2009 - 12:40pm Sikh-learner

Basic difference !!!

R.K.....First of all, in the past those hindus who converted to sikhism were brave and honest with moral valued hindus....these hindus had logical thinking, Like they rejected all the mythology or rituals of Hindu religion...Or I can say the words from Pak. First PM Jinnah, He said to Sikhs in 1947 that" Sikhs you have seen the Slave (gulam) hindu, In future when you will see the Independent (azad) hindu, You would regret about your decision for living with them or regret about not asking seprate nation in 1947 division"...... And hindus have the proved the quotation of Jinnah since after 1947 to 1984.....well done hindus !!!!! I have similar question from you from the past, Question: before independence Hindus had first son as sikh....but once after getting independence hindus stopped doing that......This is basic difference between gulam hindu and azad hindu.....
May 11, 2009 - 1:22pm Romesh Kumar

Sikh-learner.............,

Sikh-learner............., Surprising, you are writing opposite of the reality. Very strong majority of those hindus were working class, socalled low caste and farming class. They were honest but not brave, they became brave after following gurus. Jinnah ? What are you talking ? That could be a highly political, diplomatic, convenient to the situation statement of a politician/enemy of killing two birds with one stone. Why did he not ask his countrymen/followers to discriminate in killings and displacings in western Punjab ? Which separate nation was he offering to sikhs and where ? Then why were sikhs forced to leave western Punjab ? Gandhi had upper hand in this matter. he lost if not sacrificed his life for muslims. Answer to your question could sound bitter but truth is that this could be because of changed world and circumstances not distraction or hatred. Even more and more sikhs are prefering to be cleanshaved nowadays which does not mean that they are anti-sikh. This is all about someone's personal choice.
May 11, 2009 - 9:57am stand for truth (not verified)

DON`T YOU THINK....................

DON`T YOU THINK THAT PEOPLE HERE TEACHING US WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED BEFORE AND AFTER 84, TRYING TO REDEFINE THINGS, TRYING TO CLEAR MISCONCEPTIONS, GIVING DEFINITION OF SIKH, AND DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY POINTING OUT THAT ULTIMATELY YOU (SIKHS ) ARE WRONG. ACCEPT GOI VERSION, OF EVERY INCIDENCE. THEY SHOULD STRIKE THE ROOTS OF PROBLEM "THE BRAHMINS" AND THEIR DEFENDERS. BRAHMINS CAN NEVER BE WRONG, THOUGH THEY ARE EXPLOITING INDIANS FROM AGES, CREATING HATRED ETC ETC. ATTACK ON THE ROOTS WHY YOU ARE STRIKING OFF-SHOOTS.
May 11, 2009 - 10:38am Sikh-learner

Standfortruth.....100% agree

Standfortruth.....100% agree with you...Thats why they called (Hin##)....By presenting different story/facts about 1984, they are trying to tell the sikhs that" 1984 didn't happened with sikhs, it was bad dream forget about it"...What a childish!!!!....I got remember another hindu RSS chracter from sikhnet discusion form (Roshanpk) "He was also trying to justify to the Sikhs that, Congress goons did 1984 sikh genocide, BJP OR hindus has nothing to do with"....what a lie !!!!.....Its a good excuse, Minority sikhs killed by congress, and in 2002 in gujurat muslims killed by BJP CM Narendra modi !!!! this the best way/policy to make Hindu Raj hindustan !!!!
May 11, 2009 - 11:26am stand for truth (not verified)

common people..........

common people in day to day life and from every walks of life ( hindus iam talking about) used to say " sardaro ne ek hindu neta mara to hinduon gussa nahi aayega, hinduon ne choodian pahan rakhi hai kya" even those who studied in USA also justifies 84 and post 84. if you see videos on you tube how many killers can you see were in grief. on national channel anti-sikh slogans were broadcasted in a secular india. " sardar kaum ke gaddar" " hindu -muslim bhai-bhai sardaron ki karo katai, sardaro ko kaat dalo maar dalo" and you remember hindus attacked nagar keeertan in jammu. i think 100% of mob comprised of people of one faith only. congressism was not their religion.
May 10, 2009 - 3:57pm sach

PM of India was Muslim

RK.......Just tell me this: Is your user name "sukoot"? This is what this person wrote on May 1: "Was it not a Sikh who assasinated Prime Minister Indira Gandhi, a Hindu woman?" Read that post and you can then tell this person that her religion was not of any importance. Why are you so sensitive to know about the fact? Does it hurt you to know the truth? I knew you would be the first one to comment! If religion is not important, then how come she was forced by the old man of India to change her name from Khan to Gandhi? Why was truth not revealed to the masses at that time?
May 11, 2009 - 4:47am Romesh Kumar

sach...................., It

sach...................., It is very common that we use to step in to the discussion between any of two members. I am at all not sensitive about this matter but you seem to be hyper-sensitive the way you are digging into a simple and worldwide known fact. There was nothing hidden to reveal !!!!!! Let alone electronic media, those days common people did not have access to print media even. Who knows what was agreed between them/high profile families. Feroze Khan was a muslim, they fell in love , it was decade of late 30s/early 40s. A public hindu figure wanted to marry a muslim. Her father was shocked and was not happy with that. What I have heard is (1) His mother had GHANDI subcaste not Gandhi. (2) Nehru told Mahatma Gandhi of his concern, Gandhi adopted Feroze Khan as his son and he became Feroze Gandhi. I do not confirm it as it is all hear and say. Again, I have to say that all these things do not matter for high profile people, they can do anything and still will be respected. All these customs, traditions, social values, religion, religious practices, character etc etc etc are the assets of we poor people not high profile and rich people. As of her death, PM was assasinated by her own bodyguards.
May 10, 2009 - 3:29pm Sikh-learner

R.K.....To cure the mental

R.K.....To cure the mental disease and braiwashed characters, Firstly you need to start from your home by devoting time of 24x7, I mean from your radical, fundamentalist hindu fellows, Those who don't let other people live their lives peace fully, they need to learn "JEO AUR JENO DO"......Becuse if you starts from other religion peoples, then it seems like" GHAR MEIN NAHIN DANEY AMMA CHALI BHUNANEY"...It means you need to to see your own hindu people mistake first, before blamming on others........Your hindu radicals were sleeping from last 800 years regarding ram mandir issue, Now they wake up to make Hindu raj in india with the help of their Hindu govt.....
May 11, 2009 - 4:54am Romesh Kumar

Sikh-learner.................

Sikh-learner.................., You have made a good and strong point. Before I reply, pls tell why and how did sikhism come in being ? Why did hindus choose another way and become sikhs ?
May 10, 2009 - 12:53pm stand for truth (not verified)

HIV THREAT.....................

Dear Friends, A few weeks ago, in a movie theatre, a person felt something poking from her seat. When she got up to see what it was, she found a needle sticking out of the seat with a note attached saying 'You have just been infected by HIV'. The Disease Control Center (in Paris ) reports many similar events in many other cities recently. All tested needles were HI V Positive. The Center also reports that needles have been found in cash dispensers at public banking machines. We ask everyone to use extreme caution when faced with this kind of situation. All public chairs/seats should be inspected with vigilance and caution before use. A careful visual inspection should be enough. In addition, they ask that each of you pass this message along to all members of your family and your friends of the potential danger. Recently, one doctor has narrated a somewhat similar instance that hppened to one of his patients at the Priya Cinema in Delhi ... A young girl, engaged and about to be married in a couple of months, was pricked while the movie was going on. The tag with the needle had the message 'Welcome to the World of HIV family'. Though the doctors told her family that it takes about 6 months before the virus grows strong enough to start damaging the system and a healthy victim could survive about 5-6 years, the girl died in 4 months, perhaps more because of the 'Shock thought'. We all have to be careful at public places, rest God help! Just think about saving a life by forwarding this message. Please, take a few seconds of your time to pass along.
May 10, 2009 - 9:50pm Theodorus

Fear of living

Stand for Truth ji,

These are just the kind of stories used to sow fear amongst people to harvest agression towards others.

If you are going to live your life in fear of these kinds unlikely events (even if true) I do not envy you.

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