Khalistan, a reality or a shambles?

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rayjay
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Re: Khalistan, a reality or a shambles?

Post by rayjay »

Khalisthan is not the same as a Punjabi Republic AT ALL!

Firstly the punjabi republic claims all punjabi speaking regions of the subcontinent although it will begin with those present in India. Khalisthan is claiming current dau Indian state of Punjab ONLY.

Secondly,
Hindus and Muslims won't want to be stuck in this Punjabi Republic of yours, they will leave for either Pakistan or India, and this independent state will inevitably become one for Sikhs.
During Maharaja Ranjit singhs times, sikhs, hindus, muslims....etc lived in harmony. The reason for tensions and religious intolerence is because both Indian and Pakistans governments interference. Pakistan appealed to muslims, India to the Hindu's, sikhs were left out all together hence why the region exploded in violence. The Punjabi republic is installing the Idea of the Punjabi Identity over the religious. Punjab is not a Hindu country, a Muslim Country or a sikh or even christian country, it is a Punjabi country for Punjabi's, Punjabi people. This is the idea the movement is trying to install in the people. Punjabi people are stronger united. And once this Idea of nationalism and patriotism is scheived then all punjabis will feel the need too flea the country and get together to build develop the country.

The republic of punjab is not a terrorist movement. We don't want to take an armed struggle we can never win to gain a country we cannot develop we want Punjabi people to chnge thier attitude and want to develop punjab and through political means gain independence from India on the basis of the Common ethnicity, Punabi as distinct from India.

And for crying out loud, you are making me repeat myself once more (i'm sure the moderators won't be too happy but...), The republic of Punjab wants Autonomy. It will NOT sever all ties from India! It will still hold central government IN INDIA.
For instance we can look at Kashmir in the past when it was entirely apart of India it had complete Autonomy and even its own Prime minister and it was still part of India. This is what we want to acheive.
...But after the militancy and the war with Pakistan, kashmiri Autonomy was removed.

We do not want a Militant Movement, Your comments make me think you are sponsored by the Indian government.
Harvinder_london
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Re: Khalistan, a reality or a shambles?

Post by Harvinder_london »

RayJay,

your arguments are totally childish.
rayjay wrote:OK, Since when have I stated that I beleive in Khalistan??? I am opposed to
Khalistan as I have quite Clearly stated!
You started this discussion and titled it "Khalistan, a reality or a shambles? " if you are interested in an independent Punjab, why mention Khalistan??

I asked you some plain questions
Harvinder_london wrote:Do you live in Punjab or in the west?
Were you born in Punjab or the west?
If you live in the west how often do you visit Punjab/India?
How old are you (rough age)
Please answer the above questions.
rayjay wrote:Its a polictical movement so even if this notion exists on hard drives and
the internet it means the Idea is still alive in peoples minds and if this
is this case then the demand for an independant Punjab is legitimate since
it is what the Punjabi People want!!!
Your reply was
rayjay wrote:I am of Punjabi origin
This is a bizarre argument, can you please provide figures for internet and PC use in Punjab, I would appreciate it if you could provide figures for Rural and urban usage.
I think the figures for internet/PC usage are higher in the western world where most Khalistani's live. As opposed to the ordinary people of Punjab.
rayjay wrote:Who said anything about dying? Its a campaign for the hearts and minds of
all fellow Punjabis to identify as Punjabi over anything else and demanding
the land of punjab be a soverign nation by POLITICAL MEANS!!!!!
What gives you the right to "DEMAND" anything? you do not live there and you have been evasive in your answer about how often you visit!!
rayjay wrote:
I don't know why I get the impression that Harvinder ji, you are not a Sikh. You often get hindus posing as Sikhs
on forums like this trying to convince us that the Idea of Independence is not possible when it is Indeed:)
I know what I am, and that statement of yours indicates paranoid thinking. I went to a Sikh boarding school (Dagshai Public School). So what if Hindu's join the forum, are they excluded by forum rules? Surely they have a right to their views, they are also people of Punjab!!

Please answer the questions I asked you about your origins.
NSJ
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Re: Khalistan, a reality or a shambles?

Post by NSJ »

rayjay wrote: Here are my reasons for critisizing the notion of Khalistan:

Punjab is the Sikh homeland and it is here where our religion was born. Sikhism grew to popularity in Punjab in the 16th century in opposition to the Mughal rulers policy for the entire population to submit to Islam. Historically Sikhs resisted forced conversion and faught to defend other religios groups from persecution and submission to Islam also and eventually overthrew the mughal rulers. Punjab was then ruled under sikhs as a secular nation and under the principles of sikh teachings where all faiths and creeds were treated equally and in turn was revered by muslims, hindu's and sikhs alike. So why would sikhs now demand a small portion of Punjab as a country for only Sikhs? This would surely contradict the guru granth sahib which preaches co-existence and tolerence for other religions.

When I think of a Sikh nation, I think of the pride of sikhism. An impressive reflection of Sikh values such as tolerence and freedom which would breed a vibrant, clean, non-currupt, multinational/cultural democratic country consisting of beautiful buildings and beautiful statues.

I hardly think a sikh-only country demanded by narrow minded individuals will be able to acheive this since there will not be a diverse enough population to draw from in order to progress economic, social and urban development.

Sikhs have a legitimate claim to the Whole of the Punjab. The fact that a minority of Punjabi's are sikhs does not mean we cannot claim the whole of Indian Punjab. A sikh country does not mean Sikh-only country, the fact there are many Hindu and Muslim punjabis in India does not mean that they will object to a sikh state if it was secular. I beleive Khalistan will be rejected by the non sikhs but an Independant Punjab has more validity and will be accepted by sikhs and non sikhs alike and therefore increasing the prospect of the state being created. Punjab IS the Sikh homeland PERIOD. An independant Punjab, The Republic of Punjab, will be the Sikh nation which in line with Sikhism will be democratic and secular for all Punjabi, and non punjabi, peoples.
After reading through this whole introduction I still don't see any difference between your "Republic of Punjab" and "Khalistan". You can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig. It is not going to fly just like its predecessor.

Other forum members have already explained why it is not economically viable. It has already been historically proven that it was/is not politically viable.

The Punjabi Muslims already have their homeland. It is called The Islamic Republic of Pakistan. They apparently want nothing to do with Sikhism.

The Punjabi Hindus already have their homeland. It is called The Republic of India. They are apparently happy being there.

The Punjabi Sikhs already have their Punjabi Suba (the current truncated Sikh majority state of Punjab) within India. This is the largest Sikh homeland you are going to get playing DIVISIVE politics.

India is argubly democratic and secular in line with Sikhism hence more or less a natural homeland for Sikhs and all other minority religions and ethnicities.

Redrawing the political boundries of a state is not a magic solution to social and economic development problems (if it was Pakistan and Bangladesh would have been gleaming economic powerhouses by now along with Nepal).

An educated population generally leads to good governance, both are needed for economic development, all three are needed for social justice / equality. You can see that in developed countries.

The Republic of Punjab under your plan will have a non-Sikh majority, a mini-India of sorts, but will somehow do better than the larger India because by going though this magical redrawing of political boundry this population will get better educated, elect better leaders, economically thrive, drop all prejudices and live happily everafter. I wish that was true but I am pretty sure you are not talking about making a Disney movie.

My suggestion to you is to THINK BIG, up your game. Use you political activism to create a movement to transform the whole of India into what you dream of in a Republic of Punjab. Focus your effort to make it a better democracy and a better homeland for all people. Then hold a referendum for a NAME CHANGE if you find yourself still fixated on that. I think you will acheive more success going this route than any other. GOOD LUCK!
NSJ
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AS Khalsa
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Re: Khalistan, a reality or a shambles?

Post by AS Khalsa »

During Maharaja Ranjit singhs times, sikhs, hindus, muslims....etc lived in harmony. The reason for tensions and religious intolerence is because both Indian and Pakistans governments interference. Pakistan appealed to muslims, India to the Hindu's, sikhs were left out all together hence why the region exploded in violence. The Punjabi republic is installing the Idea of the Punjabi Identity over the religious. Punjab is not a Hindu country, a Muslim Country or a sikh or even christian country, it is a Punjabi country for Punjabi's, Punjabi people. This is the idea the movement is trying to install in the people. Punjabi people are stronger united. And once this Idea of nationalism and patriotism is scheived then all punjabis will feel the need too flea the country and get together to build develop the country.
Read your own history. The Lahore Durbar was not all Hindus Sikhs and Muslims frolicking in the fields. The Muslims were certainly not happy under Maharaja Ranjit Singh's rule. When the British declared the First Anglo Sikh War, the rural Muslims in the Western and Northern reaches of the empire, especially around Multan and Kashmir, were supplied arms by the East India Company in order to rise up against their Sikh overlords.

When the Muslims of Amritsar celebrated Muharram with such pomp as to offend the Akali Nihangs, the Sikhs of Amritsar went on a rampage and attacked the camp of Maharaja Ranjit Singh. The minarets of the Badshahi mosque in Lahore were used for cannon practice.

Sure, there were some Muslims occupying prominent positions in the government, but they did not speak for the vast majority of their co-religionists. The Muslims rejoiced when the British annexed the Sikh Kingdom.

During the agitation for the Punjabi Suba in 1966, the Hindus of Punjab listed their mother language as 'Hindi'. They did this on order to break away from the Punjab (and form Haryana). They did this because 'Punjabi' has become synonymous with 'Sikh'. Synonymous with Sikh majority and Sikh dominion. They won't want to be part of your Republic. There is no Punjabi nationalism.

And if they concede a republic to you, how much longer before the Bengalis, the Rajputs, the Marathas, the Tamils, the Kashmiris, all demand republics of their own? It is only fair you give us independence, you gave it so readily to Punjab. If India allows you to have your Republic, it is signing its own death warrant.
And for crying out loud, you are making me repeat myself once more (i'm sure the moderators won't be too happy but...), The republic of Punjab wants Autonomy. It will NOT sever all ties from India! It will still hold central government IN INDIA.
You haven't thought this out very well. If it holds central government in India, then it doesn't have complete autonomy. Its independence would be just a sugar coated lie. And anyway, I thought you wanted to break away from India because you were convinced that they were conspiring to destroy the Sikh identity. Now you say you will still hold central government there?
We do not want a Militant Movement, Your comments make me think you are sponsored by the Indian government.
[/quote]

Lol, why are all you separatists convinced that anyone who has a different view from you must be some Congress stooge? You seriously think the Indian government sponsors people to spread propaganda on an American-based Sikh discussion forum?
Harvinder_london
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Re: Khalistan, a reality or a shambles?

Post by Harvinder_london »

NSJ wrote:An educated population generally leads to good governance, both are needed for economic development, all three are needed for social justice / equality. You can see that in developed countries.
This is such an important statement and I am so glad you made it!!

The problems of India and for the purpose of this discussion is "Good governance"
I read a book a short while ago by Gurcharan Das called "India Unbound" he makes repeated references to "good Governance and "civil society" this is the answer to the problems in Punjab, not breaking away and forming a separate and unviable country.

RayJay, with all due respect and I am not writing this in a patronising way, it is something I always wish that I had done and hope to do one day.
Why don't you go to India and the Punjab? Spend a year living there. Talk to people, farmers, truck drivers, ordinary people and just find out about the lives and concerns of ordinary people.
There is no point sitting at a keyboard in a foreign country dreaming of an independent khalistan. You are relatively young, go and find out the ground situation.
rayjay
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Re: Khalistan, a reality or a shambles?

Post by rayjay »

Ok, there is no similarity between a Punjabi Republic and Khalisthan.

Khalistan= a seperate country carved out of what is current day punjab for the Sikh people.

Punjabi Republic= an autonomous state of India (NOT A COMPLETLEY SEPERATE COUNTRY) which consists of all native punjabi speaking regions of north India. A State for ALL religions, not just Sikhism.

People have made suggestions as to why Khalisthan is economically unviable I have yet to read a convincing argument against a economically viable independant State of India.
The politicians of India have a lot of problems ot worry about. They have to consider the the whole of Indias problems as well as maintain political popularity...etc. The needs and concerns of Punjab alone are not really that high up on thier agenda. Not to mention the Indian government having flooded the region with drugs and Alcohol to encourage sikhs to drown in whisky to prevent them fighting for thier rights.

With the punjabi state in charge of our own affairs, without the weight of the rest of India to worry about, we can make much quicker progress and address issues much more effectively.
Don't forget the poverty levels in other parts of India being much, much higher than in Punajb. This is another factor which impacts Punjabs development.

Punjabis need control of our own cultural and social issues rather than have the Indian government trying to mould us to mirror the mainstream Hindu population.

First and foremost, Punjabis need to realise that this Land belongs to US and not the Indian government. If they want us to be apart of thier country it should be on OUR terms.
The people in the villages of Punjab have needs but these people don't realise that their problems exist due to neglect from the Indian government in the first place. The punjabis in punjab only care about basic things, they would sell thier own mother for a loaf of bread because of the conditions intentionally created by the Indian government. With autonomy Punjab's issues will be addressed quicker since a punjabi government can focus on solely Punjab.

Punjabi people need to realise ths is the land of our forefathers, the land they faught and died for. They died for freedom and now we are enslaved by the very people we protected, the Hindus (Label them how you want). This is why the educated and well off sikhs in the West fight for Independence because they have the opportunity to. We are not kept on a leash like the punjabis in Punjab who have a lack of education, rights, basic ammenities which is why they struggle to understand the bigger picture and why they are in this situation in the first place.

Moderator Note: This topic appears to be unrelated to "Khalistan" - It will be closed on 11/3/13 at 10 PM EST.
VeeruS
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Re: Khalistan, a reality or a shambles?

Post by VeeruS »

rayjay,

Have you ever asked yourself who would make the majority if the original Punjab existed?

Looking at Wikipedia, I calculated that no more than 15% of the original Punjab population could be Sikhs and the rest of the Punjab population would be Muslims, Hindus and others and majority would be Muslim population, about 60%.

Are Sikhs really so desperate in Punjab, today that they would rather make only 15% of the Punjab population than 60%, which is today?

I think you are just wasting yours and everybody else's time with this concept of Khalistan.
Nihal Singh Kanakpuria
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Re: Khalistan, a reality or a shambles?

Post by Nihal Singh Kanakpuria »

VeeruS wrote:rayjay,

Have you ever asked yourself who would make the majority if the original Punjab existed?

Looking at Wikipedia, I calculated that no more than 15% of the original Punjab population could be Sikhs and the rest of the Punjab population would be Muslims, Hindus and others and majority would be Muslim population, about 60%.

Are Sikhs really so desperate in Punjab, today that they would rather make only 15% of the Punjab population than 60%, which is today?

I think you are just wasting yours and everybody else's time with this concept of Khalistan.
Veeru



Where did you get the figure of 15 % only being Sikhs ? The population of Punjab was approx 60% Sikhs in 2001 , has it become less than 15 % now ? (link below)


http://censusindia.gov.in/Census_Data_2 ... nities.htm
Serjinder Singh
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Re: Khalistan, a reality or a shambles?

Post by Serjinder Singh »

VeeruS I think is talking about the Sikh population in the Punjab before partition. If Punjabi population, of all Punjabis, means all those who speak Panjabi in India as well as in Pakistan then certainly the population of Sikhs in the proposed Republic of Punjab where all Punjabi speakers live would be 15%.
However, only if wishes were horses, we could fly to the moon as they say. Neither the Muslim Punjabis nor Hindu Panjabis of India have any love lost for Panjabi language or any fanciful Punjabi republic.

All this talk lays bare the basic craze for "Khalistan" nothing else.

Serjinder Singh
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Re: Khalistan, a reality or a shambles?

Post by VeeruS »

Actually after actual calculations, this is the result:

State Total Population Sikh Population Hindu Population Muslim Population
Punjab - India 24,358,999 14,592,387 8,997,942 382,045
Punjab - Pakistan 101,000,000 As Others As Others 98182100
Himachal 6,856,509 84335.0607 6513683.55 111761.0967
Haryana 25,353,081 1402025.379 22369023.37 1465408.082
Total 157,568,589 16,078,747 37,880,649 100,141,314
Percentage 100% 10% 24% 64%

Sikh population about 10%, Hindus about 24% and Muslims about 64%.

This is what you would get if there was a so-called United Punjab. Certain Sikhs have always complained about Indian Punjab being split into three different states. Sikhs could never make majority if Punjab, Haryana and Himachal were still one state; thus could not rule as they are doing it in Punjab today.
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