Ghosts or no ghosts?

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Ghosts or no ghosts?

Postby rani_vancouver » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:31 pm

Sat Shri Akaal Everyone,

After to obeserve comments on various other discussion topics, I am left confused on Sikh stand on ghosts.

I don't have personal experiences to decide on one way or the other. I have studied science at university level, but it is good upto at point. When it comes to ghosts, evil spirits, some people would say one thing, others say another thing. Then I consulted Shri Guru Granth Sahib, and the following line in particular:

Page 276

ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਭੂਤ ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਸੂਕਰ ਮ੍ਰਿਗਾਚ ॥
Many millions are the evil nature-spirits, ghosts, pigs and tigers.

I also have read one Sakhi of Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji. He was travelling and came across one village. The villagers complained of one place being haunted. Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji cleaned the place off these evil spirits, and also asked the spirits to break the trees on the way out. And it was witnessed that tree branches were broken in one direction.

I see some Sikhs here are very devoted Sikhs on some ways, for example having 5 Ks, then why not believe something that is written in Shri Guru Granth Sahib?

I must add that recently I talked to a ***baptised preacher*** who said, Sikh religion only deals with this life, and it does not preach anything related to soul that leaves the body after death. It is all only in body, and after death, 5 elements mix in the 5 elements, and it is all over. You would not believe the shock I was in after to hear this Sikh preacher in complete Sikh form say something so out of ordinary to me.
Then people would say, all the Sakhis are not real, they are made only to get attention of the villagers. Now we can also through away the little history we do have.

I don't understand how do people form their opinions?

I hope we discuss this to arrive at some conclusions.

Thank you,
Rani
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Re: Ghosts or no ghosts?

Postby sabretooth » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:41 am

WGJKK WGJKF.

Just as there are as many colours in the light spectrum so shall there be opinons on these subjects i.e. ghosts, black magic and to a point - reincarnation. There is no one particular standard answer to this area of discussion, mainly peoples own opinions. As the X-Files tag line goes - the truth is out there! Lol.


AKAL!!!!!
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Re: Ghosts or no ghosts?

Postby manvir singh khalsa » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:39 am

Hmm... is ghost the correct label to be applied? Does ghost not mean free roaming spirit?

Interestingly there is much on the 'other dimension' on news and television all the time. There are some individuals selling books and making tv shows talking to peoples lost loved ones.

If you do a search for 'Ramtha', (which will reveal all as the first link is the skeptics dictionary) this individual in the US is a self proclaimed Spiritual Teacher who takes the spirit of a woman. Scientists examined her pulse and vital readings during a 'transition' and stated that the readings they were getting were not possible naturally. Apparently Ramtha is 35 000 years old and is reincarnated as he said he would to his disciples.

(Interestingly the story of people roaming the earth over 35 000 years ago shows up time and time again in different cultures)

Again there are other incidents in other cultures like the Virgin Mary statue that bleeds at her eyes, exorcisms and such that do perhaps warrant investigation. But scientific investigation into such matters is almost purely stipulations based on eye witness accounts and reports.

No doubt if the Spirit is not merely a hypothetical thing and that it is a measurable force that can simply not be detected with the current instrumentation that we have, perhaps it can have wordly effects? Perhaps. I know much of this falls in place of pseudo-science and perhaps irrational thought.

Although the skepdictionary is quite biased and often relies upon viewpoints of others it does open up an awareness of criticality that is necessary when approaching such situations. I as always will continue to look towards Pubmed for the nitty gritty regarding such things.
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Re: Ghosts or no ghosts?

Postby manvir singh khalsa » Tue Sep 02, 2008 11:11 am

I would also like to add that a famous vancouver author by the name of Ekhart Tolle in his book talks about people experiencing a 'pain body' as a result of coming into this world. Although he alludes from the obvious Karmic connection, there is a likelihood his explanation could be applied to a person of very low consciousness experiencing negative consequences of Karmic pain body. For example there are some individuals who made a discovery of a person who died of some unthinkable act (homicide say), and they somehow felt a connection to go to some place or whatnot and they ended up finding a persons dead body opening up a case for the police to solve. They believed for example that this is themselves in a previous life (obviously their age taken into account the death was before their birth). Considering the amount of atrocities that have occurred in human history is it possible that individual pain bodies exist and perhaps torment the person and the unconscious mind? This is another possible explanation, but again how do we destroy Karma, by living Dharma, and all such pain bodies can be washed away. Just another perspective.
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Re: Ghosts or no ghosts?

Postby rani_vancouver » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:07 pm

Thank you all for responding. I was also a big fan of X-files, that may be another reason, why I like to keep an open mind for "the truth that is out there". But as Scolly will say, "so are the lies". :)

It is quite possible that people are too superstitious and not everyone claiming to be possessed is indeed possessed. As they say, where there is smoke there is also a fire. And from my personal observations, I do find some things difficult to reject as superstition. Then I have heard one same story related to Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji Rarewale from three different independent sources. My well educated uncle told me a boy was brought to Sant Ji, who talked in middle eastern language, people actually recorded his voice while talking and also reading kalma (Muslim prayers) from his memory. This boy never had come across such knowledge to explain all this. The spirit revealed himself in very clear terms that in his past life he was in the business of black magic. He was punished for this and was put into this Jinn's life. He said we live for hundreds or thousands of years. However, when Guru Nanak travelled to middle east, this jinn begged for salvation from the Guru . Guru Nanak Dev Ji promised that when my such and such Sikh will come after this many hundreds of years, he will give you salvation. He said, it was you (Sant Ji) that he has been waiting for, and as promised by Guru Nanak Dev Ji, you must give me salvation now. Sant Ji said he would rid him of his that life, and give him a chance as a human again and in a Sikh family. However, some family must volunteer to have you as their child. There was a sikh couple who could not have any children, they volunteered, and they had a son. Off course this boy could not remember anything about his past life. Some people even know which village, which family this jinn was born as a boy. My uncle was to give me the cassette of the possessed boy talking, although never got around to it. :( But he off course has listened to it himself.

How can we ignore stuff like this? This is a very recent event, it may even be possible to track the cassette of the boy's speech. So we have evidence on our hands.

Since it is written in Shri Guru Granth Sahib, and we have sakhis related to such matters, I am inclined to believe than not believe.

As far Manvir Singh Ji's question, can these things really influence us, if we are all connected and are one, then it must be possible for all of us to influence each other.

Thank you,
Rani
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Re: Ghosts or no ghosts?

Postby Harmanpreet singhh » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:37 am

sat shri kaal sister rani

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਮੰਦਰ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts,


ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੪॥
shall be reincarnated over and over again as a goblin ( preat- bhoot) . ||4||


ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥
At the very last moment, one who thinks of the Lord, and dies in such thoughts,


ਬਦਤਿ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਪੀਤੰਬਰੁ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸੈ ॥੫॥੨॥
says Trilochan, that man shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart. ||5||2


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Re: Ghosts or no ghosts?

Postby Manmukh » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:49 am

Rani jI,
I have the audio of this coversation between sant ji and suleman. Its pretty clear that voice of the ghost (suleman) in the conversation cannot be of a kid and he does speak in a middle east language. Suleman described in length how the ghosts live.

Suleman said that he was born 1000 years ago and he has seen Guru Nanak and Gautam Buddha. As per history Guatam Buddha was born more than 2000 years ago. Therefore its impossible for suleman to see Gautam Buddha.

Its just this one thing which sow the doubts in y mind regarding the authenticity of this story of possession. Otherwsie it sounds all genuine.


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Re: Ghosts or no ghosts?

Postby sabretooth » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:00 am

WGJKK WGJKF.

That sounds intriguing Manmukh. Why not share it for all to hear and upload it onto Youtube. I am chomping at the bit to hear the audio.

AKAL!!!!


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Re: Ghosts or no ghosts?

Postby prettyprincess » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:24 pm

SSA Rani I did not believe in thes supernatural things until I myself experienced its presence.Th first time my neck moved and hand wrote words in air I thought I was experiencing a convulsion but then I gradually realized that all this screaming ,staying away from people,gurdwara,hands touching my ears in apology ie dont listen to kirtan,dont study.etc.is something else.One day I was watching TV lying down and suddenly I peed on the sofa because I felt some one telling me this world is full of vultures big and small vultures .you also become a vulture.I felt flapping of the birds feathers.i called 911.They took me to hospital.The doctor couldnt make head and tail of what I was saying.His diagnosis switched from anxiety to panic attacks to depression to psychosis.My parents took me to this tantrik.He said i happened to be present at the site of unnatural death ie accident.He said the evil spirit resides in back of head ie cerebellum area.It enters through umblicus in fraction of second.I experienced all this .Then this spirit would make words with my tongue and It said "con artist"This infuriated the tantrik and he read some mantar and suddently i found myself my body shaping in bundle and sobbing.So this tantrik didnt give me the mantar he recited but told to recite another one also he did some havan homam whatever hindus do .After that the screaming stopped but I constantly feel the khich in my tongue,neck headache.SO itold him the spirit has not totally gone.It wakes me up suddently in the middle of the nite.I feel something slithering on my body.I get these dirty sex dreams I am ashamed of talking about. I stopped getting peroids He said these are blood sucking spirits.He said the first one went away.its the second one now.I have lost faith in him now.BTW Rani I am doing the prayer you wrote on the net,also kirtan sohila and chaupaee shahib.Lets see what happens.
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Re: Ghosts or no ghosts?

Postby Manmukh » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:20 am

Fatehji,

Suleman's tape is already available on net on this link:

http://www.gurbaniupdesh.org/multimedia ... Udhaar.mp3

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