Sikh Temples view on mixed marriages

Discussions on various aspects of Sikhi
keshgarh
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Re: Sikh Temples view on mixed marriages

Post by keshgarh »

I have seen in quite a few cases inter-caste( not even inter-religion, only inter caste of the same religion) marriages being done in courts of law because the parents are not agreeing . Some years back there were two colleagues in office one from high and the other from the lowest caste The parents did not agree - they genuinely liked each other ,so the lovers went to the court and got married.

Here i do not understand why you wish to force yourself on Gurudwara authorities to create new rules... or you will make a chinese guy wear a turban for 1 hour to give him the look of a pseudo-sikh for the granthi ji to close his eyes .
In the example given above no body could convince the parents for an inter caste marriage but here you wish to befool the Gurudwara authorities.

And if you claim that the person you like belong to no faith, its a more serious matter ------ do you know what Guru Sahib has to say for such a person???????
NI-GURA ( one who does not have a master) and Guru sahib says- company of such a person is dangerous!!!!....(nigure ka hai naam bura)---(NSJ Ji , Punjabi Ji, Swarn Bains JI, Sher Dil Ji ---- may you like to consider this angle and give your final advice to the young lady in dilemma)
And I find many wise ppl supporting this young lady rather then showing her the right path....

Moderator comment: Is a "chinese guy" against Sikhi or against wearing a turban?
Sher dil
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Re: Sikh Temples view on mixed marriages

Post by Sher dil »

Deepharn

I don't know which part of the world you come from but in any civilized part of the world you don't address someone with their ethnicity which is insulting.
So, in contrast, her post can easily be interpreted as follows - she is insulting all of you young Sikh males, if you can understand and some self-esteem. And in the uk and the us and in many other parts of the world, many Sikh females are preferring to marry non-Sikh males.
Absolutely, not. There is nowhere she is insulting Sikh males and your reaction is simply eagerness and jealousy on your part to humiliate her and is neurotic.
Yes, every body has a right to marry any one, that is not being questioned. Have you ever thought of finding out why Sikh females are marrying non-Sikhs, and explicitly saying that on elite Sikh websites?
It seems that what you mean when you say "every body has a right to marry any one" is that the right women get is not without paying the price of their own humiliation if she exercises this right.
That is the more important issue that young Sikh males like you should be worried.
Why should I be worried about what choices women make? I don't want women to marry based on my choice. It's you who want to lead their life based on you. Is this how we are suppose to treat women? It certainly leaves women with no choice of their own.

It is the very misogynist Sikhs in our community who insult and disparage women for making their own choice and force women in marriages to justify bigotry against women and conceal their hypocrisy by appealing to religiosity of Sikhism.
deepharn
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Re: Sikh Temples view on mixed marriages

Post by deepharn »

Sherdil,
Once again I do not understand the schizophrenic reaction from you. I say this because of the following -

A. If I had said anything about ethnicity, color, eyes, nose, race, then I can understand your neurotic reaction. I did not. I have simply said that the person is mr china because param77 said that her fiancée is from china. You tell me how would you have addressed it? Tell me a better word or stop acting schizophrenic. I have lived in the many parts of the world and know what is racist and what is not. Your reaction is unnatural and over reactive to a word - I am still asking you a better word than what I have referred.

B. when did I say in any of my postings that she should not marry this mr. China (or whatever you want to call him'). All I am saying is that Sikh gurdwaras are having some rules', what ever they may, that cannot be changed every now and then, for every person.

C. If you and other young sikh males do not have the self esteem and cannot realize that she is slapping the Sikh males, by saying that she did not find Sikh males worth her consideration but a non religious person is worth her, then be it. Be very happy in your new found wisdom, dear sherdil, and your serenity. Param 77 clearly says that her previous husband was a sikh, she was forced into marrying him and it was against her choice and she has no reason to marry a sikh. What do you decipher from this statement. To me and many other parents, this is a wake up call - why are Sikh girls frustrated that they don't like to spend their life with Sikh men in marriage.

D. Imagine a situation when many more of Sikh girls choose to marry non-Sikhs, not clean shaven Sikhs believing in SGGS Ji, but non Sikhs. What does it show to you? To me, it shows a pattern which should be examined, reasons found and corrective measures taken.

E. Once again, no body can force any one to marry any one but as you cannot insist on getting married in buckingam palace or tinamen square, you similarly cannot insist on changing rules of a gurdwaras, which have common rules for sangat, not made by me and you individually but together. You may think like param77 and insist on marrying in gurdwaras but many many people in sangat and in management express the views that I have mentioned and are concerned about what influence it has on other people in the sangat. Talk to them, find out for yourself and then adopt words like neurotic or what ever other favorite words you have in your vocabulary

F. What is the solution - marry outside Gurudwara. Just imagine this unique thing - what is your favorite word - bigotry - a Sikh girl Wants to marry a non Sikh male ( after saying that sikh male was never her choice) in a Sikh temple in a sikh ceremony presided by Sikh male preachers in front of Sikh guru. To me this is too contradictory. You, sherdil and her other relatives should advice her not to have a contradictory personality and happily marry outside.

G. Do you really believe that she will have Sikh children if the marriage ceremony was held in Gurudwara and non-Sikh children, if marriage ceremony was held outside Gurudwara.

G. We Sikhs, really need to think, why Sikh children are seeking non -sikh partners. Can we do something about it. Do children from mixed marriages follow religion of father or mother? My experience has been - any where in the world - religion of father, given the patriarchal society.


Hope this helps
Thanks
deepharn
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Re: Sikh Temples view on mixed marriages

Post by deepharn »

NSJ Ji,

I agree with you and some of the reasons that you have mentioned. Our educated girls look for educated men, nd there are not many matchings possible. Hence, this mixed marriages have started. We need to collectively think - even Sikh boys are increasingly marrying non-Sikh girls.

In a patriarchal society, or male dominated society, be it in the uk, USA, Australia, or India, accross the world, I have seen that religion of father is what children adopt always. At least, in my travels accross the world, I have yet to see a Sikh looking child of a non-Sikh father. Never So far. Correct me if you have seen any, even in the USA.

in many cases Sikh Men would marry non-Sikh girls, and in all those cases, child would be Sikh looking. Why. Male dominated society and it was understood clearly, that the lady is happily accepting a Sikh male to become a Sikh.

Now, the solution is not to open Gurudwara for any one to come and get married. There has to be some sanctity of a Gurudwara which has to be maintained as it is a common place for a spectrum of people strict followers on one side to non followers on other who come to sight seeing. Also, as you know, we Sikhs, treat SGGS Ji as living guru, distinct from other religions and their practices. It is very difficult to conceive that Gurudwara should become like a shopping mall or attorneys office. And that Sikh marriage ceremony should become ornamental for videos, and DVDs, with glittering rumalas and ornate palganri. Tomorrow for scenic beauty and experience, two non -Sikh partners, would seek their wedding to be conducted there, how will you say no.

To me, Sikh religion is adaptable to modern thinking but the basics will do not change. Illustratively, like a tree, in a storm, wind, summer and winter, leaves cchange but not the trunk. Similarly, when Pahari rajas were insisting on taking Amrit from tenth master, what did he tell them? He could have easily changed some rules, to accommodate their request, bought peace and increased the number of amritdhari Sikhs. Tenth master did not agree to move an inch on conditions. So, basics don't change because some changes take place on the margin.

Finally, because we Sikhs see god in all, does not mean that every one is permitted to do every thing. Of god is in all, then why was sain Mia Mir chosen to lay foundation stone of golden temple and not Akbar or why there was need to empower Banda bahadur and not Bhai Nand all. Tenth master saw god in all - accepted - then why he chose panj pyaras who were only sikhs. So, according to me, Sikhism has to be carefully studied and understood. We need to think about these issues in detail.

Thanks
Serjinder Singh
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Re: Sikh Temples view on mixed marriages

Post by Serjinder Singh »

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Deepharn ji wrote:
"I have seen that religion of father is what children adopt always. At least, in my travels accross the world, I have yet to see a Sikh looking child of a non-Sikh father. Never So far. Correct me if you have seen any, even in the USA."

Even in the USA there are thousands of "American Sikhs" whose parents were not Sikhs yet they have adopted Sikhism. Go back just a century back and you would find large sections of population did not have their parents as Sikhs but still became Sikhs. This happened either under the influence of Singh Sabha when persons from the lower castes became Sikhs or under many mahapursh Sikhs such as Sant Atar Singh ji Mastuana wale who was responsible for spreading Sikhism in the Pothohar area around Rawalpindi and the Malwa area of Punjab. The new converts were mostly Hindus. Even Master Tara Singh was a Hindu before becoming a Sikh. So was Bhagat Puran Singh of Pingalwara. Correct me if I am wrong Sant Fateh Singh the Akali leader during the sixties was from a Muslim family I think.

Please do not shut your eyes and imagine that children or even grown ups would become sikhs if their parents were Sikhs. These days we find a lot of examples where even the children of Gurdwara Committee members are not Sikhs but clean-shaven alcohol drinking. How do you explain this?

Humbly
Serjinder Singh
Sher dil
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Re: Sikh Temples view on mixed marriages

Post by Sher dil »

If you and other young sikh males do not have the self esteem and cannot realize that she is slapping the Sikh males, by saying that she did not find Sikh males worth her consideration but a non religious person is worth her, then be it.
No, She is NOT slapping any Sikh males. Your reaction to this situation is utterly paranoid that you see her marrying a non-Sikh guy as an assault on yourself. Don't you realize how disoriented you are talking?

Param 77 clearly says that her previous husband was a sikh, she was forced into marrying him and it was against her choice and she has no reason to marry a sikh. What do you decipher from this statement. To me and many other parents, this is a wake up call - why are Sikh girls frustrated that they don't like to spend their life with Sikh men in marriage.
She never said she was forced into marrying and she never said she has no reason to marry a Sikh. Your are making it up. What she is saying is that she has fallen in love with a non Sikh man which to you is assault on yourself. Can't you see that your reaction is neurotic? You are not seeing the reality and are view normal actions by people as threat.

D. Imagine a situation when many more of Sikh girls choose to marry non-Sikhs, not clean shaven Sikhs believing in SGGS Ji, but non Sikhs. What does it show to you? To me, it shows a pattern which should be examined, reasons found and corrective measures taken.
Corrective measures? Aren't the corrective measures of arranged marriages and honor killing enough?
Once again, no body can force any one to marry any one but as you cannot insist on getting married in buckingam palace or tinamen square, you similarly cannot insist on changing rules of a gurdwaras,
The woman on forum has even said she considers Sikhism as her part which you can't deny to her and she has the right to marry in Gurdwara. If Sikh man can marry to a non-Sikh in Gurdwara why can't a Sikh woman marry a non-Sikh. What is to you?

You have no problem with Sikh males getting married to non-Sikh females in Gurudwaras which you think in within the sanctity but you do have an issue with women marrying non-Sikh men.

It shows your double standard and bigotry against women that justifies mistreatment of women. Your prejudice against women is so harrowing that you call this prejudice maintenance of sanctity of Gurdwara and you can’t get away from this neurotic fixation of perceiving a free woman's actions as threat.
Nihal Singh Kanakpuria
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Re: Sikh Temples view on mixed marriages

Post by Nihal Singh Kanakpuria »

SSA,

Even though I don't agree with the way deepharan has responded and most of his views, I am equally appauled by the political correct response of some of the members, which is the problem with society nowadays.

When it comes to women, lets be politically correct esp when responding to educated women who have not experienced any ill that women usually face and surprisingly those educated women take the chivalry which should be for women who bear the brunt of being a women in Indian society.

Serjinder Singh Ji

With all respect, what you are talking about is centuries old, where as the discussion is of current times, in my little experience , and little travels but a lot of observation , even I am yet to see a son, who looks like anywhere close to being a Sikh but his father is a NON Sikh.

-Nihal
deepharn
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Re: Sikh Temples view on mixed marriages

Post by deepharn »

Serjinder Singh Ji,

How come you forgot to mention about Guru Nanak, And following three gurus.

But the discussion is in the context of modern times, and in the specific context of a Sikh girl marrying a non-Sikh male. In that context, have you seen a Sikh looking child from a non-Sikh father?

Sherdil,

Good luck to you, your analysis, link of arranged marriages and honour killing, justification of param77 marrying mr china (for want of a better word, and you have not supplied any alternative eitehr) who is a non-sikh in a sikh temple, and your rich vocalubary.

If you find a Sikh looking child of a non-Sikh father, and a Sikh mother, do enlighten us.

In contrast, if you are interested in looking at a Sikh looking child of a sikh father and a non-Sikh mother, dont go too far, just feel free to look around any and everywhere.

Finally, in a Gurudwara, rules as laid down by SGPC, common rules established by all sangat, and Sikh reheat maryada should be followed. I don't remember justifying/mentioning anytime or anywhere that mixed marriages should be performed In a Sikh temple? Please understand, this does not mean that Sikhs cannot marry non-Sikhs. Gurudwara should be here to set the highest standards, best practice examples, of pristine qlory and maintaining the sanctity of the ceremony. Unless, you can spearhead a movement, given your rich vocalubary and persistence with your rich exotic words, and get the whole panth change the rules.

Thanks
cirrus
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Re: Sikh Temples view on mixed marriages

Post by cirrus »

I have been following this thread of the discussion keenly.
The stand of Deepharn ji and Nihal ji seems clear.

But Sher Dil ji who seems to be making lot of rhetoric , but his stand and advice to Param77 is not clear.

Dear Sher Dil ji, please explain what should be done?

- Change Sikh Rehat Maryada( for helping this lady)?
or
- the Lady should convince her friend to first adapt sikh faith then marry him( in a Gurudwara)?
or
- marry in any other location and continue her faith in sikhism as ever before and respect the sikh Rehat Maryada (as every devout sikh is supposed to do) as it was made by a group of very wise and practicing sikhs of their time..
Thanks...
Sher dil
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Re: Sikh Temples view on mixed marriages

Post by Sher dil »

deepharn,

It seems that only value a Sikh woman carries to people like you is if she can produce a Sikh child.
Otherwise, a woman doesn't has any other value.
Please understand, this does not mean that Sikhs cannot marry non-Sikhs.
Is it really not an issue for you when in fact you view the action of women marrying non-Sikhs as threat and slap on your face?

I commend you for your ability to backpedal in order to conceal the hypocrisy against women.
Gurudwara should be here to set the highest standards, best practice examples, of pristine qlory and maintaining the sanctity of the ceremony. Unless, you can spearhead a movement, given your rich vocalubary and persistence with your rich exotic words, and get the whole panth change the rules.
What are these highest standard? Denying women to do service at Darbar Sahib and deny right to marry with her own choice. The standards of male bigotry are no standards.

cirrus,

Any Sikh woman choice of marrying in Gurdwara should be respected.The SGPC Sikh Rehat Maryada encourages double standard when it comes to women. It seeks to promote male domination over women and I have no support for it. This document should have been revised long ago but since we are ruled by misogynistic clergy who deny Sikh women various rights, it is not going to be changed by them.
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