Sikh Temples view on mixed marriages

[suji singh]

Extremely interesting and relevant discussion! Posters have written from their hearts, no doubt. They expended inordinate amount of energy. However, several basic issues remain.

1. Since SGGS is out living Guru, I wonder if the posters perused SGGS related to this issue.

SGGS welcomes everyone to seek council and advice. SGGS does not define "Sikh", "sikh", or a "non-sikh". SGGS is an anthology of wisdom culled from sages and seers regardless of their denominations. So, SGGS belongs to all denominations and, obviously, mixed marriages are blessed in SGGS presence.

2. Gurdwara is location where SGGS is present. It can be a field, a home, a shack, a palace, ... . SGGS can be carried in a CD, in a book as usual with accouterments, translated in other languages, in memory, ... . SGGS can be present anywhere, anytime, for anybody, ... . SGGS is a gift to mankind that cannot be taken away.

Rhet Mirayada is a cultural construct which has evolved over time like other practices. How high SGGS has to be from sangat? Not specified by SGGS. Should sangat sit on chairs or floor? Not specified by SGGS. I can go on and on.

Sikhs need to share SGGS openly with the rest of the world vs. creating all the orthodox machinations. I know many Churches where SGGS was allowed for religious ceremonies during the time Gurdwara was under construction. So, Churches became Gurudwara. How about other way around? By SGGS: There is one God, each being is imbued with the light of God, so sing praises of God.

[deepharn]

Param 77, you have seen the debate on the website. As always there is no conclusion. We as parents of young daughters do discuss these issues. Because some of us have travelled across the world and stayed in different countries, including UK, are aware of your surroundings.

This world is vast and has many beliefs and practices across the spectrum. So is the case for marriage. In Sikh religion, we believe that Guru is a supreme spiritual Guide – without Guru there is duality, constant burning desire, unhappiness; with Guru there is satisfaction, contentment, happiness. I think, now that you had chosen to come to this world through the channel of a sikh, and has the blessings of SGGS Ji, I would like you to stand steadfast on the teaching and guidance of SGGS JI, who will remain with you even after we parents are gone. According to my understanding of SGGS Ji, given your case, I would like to guide you as follows -

The overarching objective of human life is attaining the highest bliss, self enlightenment, self realization.

Within a life span, there will be many events, including marriage. The objectives of these objectives/sub events cannot be higher than that of overarching life objective. The objective of marriage, according to my understanding of lavan written by fourth master, is two fold – one sub-objective, to have a constant mirror in a partner to reflect and then correct, while aiming for the overarching objective, and second sub-objective to have children, so that the creation of the creator continues. Through these subobjectives, a sikh grows from a child/sibling to a partner , to a parent, and to a grand parent. Lovely experiences.

According to Gurbani, marriage partners should follow a simple rule – Ek Jot Dhoi murti (common line of SGGS which all of us have heard). This line implies – one in mind though visible as two bodies. To be one in mind, it is important to have common beliefs and practices, amongst other things, with the partner and within the family. Remember, a sikh believes in having a family aiming to attain supreme spiritual bliss. A Sikhs family is neither a zoo, nor a museum nor a road side junction. As a Sikh is aiming to attain spiritual bliss, spiritual objective is supreme for a Sikh, with a supporting family.

In essence, amongst other things, all religions teach discipline, restraint, watchful of your habits, tendencies, and practices, which look attractive at the spur of moment but cause pain in the long run. Like eating too much of sugar or salt is yummy while eating but could be a cause of blood pressure or diabetes in the long run. Spur of the moment and knee jerk reactions are not what a Sikh is expected to do.

In your past, you have not had good experience with one sikh, that is Ok. Thereafter, understandably, you went on a picnic and felt happy with a person who was neither a sikh. This person, whom you have chosen has no religion. In sikh religion we believe that even a name of a person without a Guru is bad (Niguray ka hai Nau Bura – again common saying of SGGS JI) and that company of such a person should be avoided.

In sikh religion, we are taught that God is in all and should be seen in all. That does not mean that there has to be no discretion – God is in trees, animals, and inanimates. We Sikhs don’t marry them. Illustratively, You have to see God in your neighbors but your neighbor ‘s husband is not yours. Similarly, love all and see God in all does not mean that you are not unique or distinct and cannot maintain it. Diversity is the law of nature.

This world is male dominated. I am sorry to say that this male domination prevails across countries and cultures (including India, China, UK), and across religions. Freedom to wear skirts and bikinis does not imply the end of male domination and equal society. Unfortunately, I have lived too long in western civilization to be duped by the concept of equal society, especially between man and woman. In this patriarchal society, dreaming of having a sikh looking child from a non-sikh father is merely just a dream. Also, It will not ethically be correct to impose your views on your non-sikh husband either. Children when given a choice between the belief of a religious but compromising mother and non-religious father, will generally turn out to unknowns, unpredictable and certainly not sikh-looking.

Every action has a consequence. One is responsible for the actions, consequences just follow. In your case, as many young ones are, blinded with love and lust, one tends to see everything through a rosy pink prism. So are you. If life was so simple, rosy and pink, you would not need a Guru to guide you. I have seen millions of lawyers, courts, psychiatrists and pyshomatic medicines in the world being used by people who are not connected with their Guru, are directionless and seek advice to recover from a psyco abyss. I have seen mothers nursing and providing home to three children from three different men, children not born in wedlock, single mothers suffering endlessly, etc. Non-Guru way of life is so much pain and to witness it look at the incidences of psycho cases, crowds thronging pubs and night clubs in the western world, just to forget their sorrows. This style of life does not lead to spiritual bliss and to achieve your spiritual objectives. Now, Guru Guides you. There is your mind ( a lawyer inside you) , a soul (a judge inside you) and your Guru, SGGS Ji guiding you. Step back, listen to the wisdom of the Guru and act, accordingly. Nothing much has been lost. You may have a long long life ahead, think with that horizon in mind. And lives after this life too - where only Guru will prevail.

[cirrus]

Sher Dil Ji wrote

The SGPC Sikh Rehat Maryada encourages double standard when it comes to women. It seeks to promote male domination over women and I have no support for it. This document should have been revised long ago but since we are ruled by misogynistic clergy who deny Sikh women various rights, it is not going to be changed by them.

Firstly, I am sure you have not read the Sikh Rehat Maryada(SRM) ..and I am sure You are not going to agree to the very first line of the very first chapter- the definition of a sikh. So for you the complete SKM should be changed...
For your sake i am attaching the link please read it, it will take some days for you to read and imbibe... the true meaning .... their implications in day to day life of a sikh.... ... and what makes a sikh unique....
http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/section_one.html

Statements like , Change this and Change that.....can be made at the drop of a hat ---
But do you see what goes into making such documents.... how much research must have gone into it....it took 2-3 years for about 50 erudite gursikhs and about 20 sikh organisations.

You seem to be a well read person...... Give it thought again....What statement you have made here on this elite sikh discussion forum.... Give it a cool thought....

For a minute i was shocked as to why the moderator did not remove your statement?
Because here in this forum we go with some guidelines .... and one of them being is that we will respect the basic tenets of Sikhism... And here you are blatantly making a statement that the SRM should be changed....to accomodate the feeling of one person.... Tomorrow you will say that the definition of sikh given in SRM should be changed to accommodate the feelings of some other person....

And in this way as per you the SRM should continue to change --- because you do not like it ??

Dear Sir, my humble request is ... please re-arrage your thoughts.... You are on SIKHNET ... not any other open chat forum.. . here your posts are saved and kept .... for everyone to read...
Think before you make sweeping statement.. implications of which you yourself does not know.

My request to the Moderators is please examine the statement which I have quoted above.. Sir, the member has defaulted on Guideline Number 5 of the Discussion Forum Guidelines . Hence appropriate action should be taken.

[Sher dil]

Thanks for the link. I have very well read the Sikh Rehat Marayada therefore, let me point out to Article XVIII that is under the consideration of the debate.

b. A Sikh's daughter must be married to a Sikh.

e. When a girl becomes marriageable, physically, emotionally and by virtue of maturity of character, a suitable Sikh match should be found and she be married to him by Anand marriage rites.

http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/secti ... leven.html

According to clause b and e, a Sikh woman has no right to get married on basis of her own choice since she is to be married off by the will of her parents. Notice how specifically these clauses are written in particular about women and not men.

This fundamentally dissolves women of her own choices and enables the practice of having women married off against their own choices. How do you justify that?

Your questioning of my freedom of expression and conscience is unfounded.

This reaction towards suppressing the free thinking of others is clerical and is motivated to deny the rational assessment of presence of misogyny and male chauvinism within our society which you feel threatened from questioning of others and which fundamentally inclines humans towards primitivism, violence and destruction. There should not be any place for this destructive and dominating tendency to define our society.

[Romesh Kumar]

This is a new topic to share people’s views on the current situation with Sikh temples and their leader’s views and attitudes towards mixed marriages and inter-caste marriages.

I am a British born Sikh and always took pride in believing that my religion was a modern and more accepting religion. We have all types of people around the world from different nationalities who are Sikhs. So I was so shocked to discover the negative response that I had from a few Sikh Temples I visited to ask if I can have my wedding there.

My partner is Chinese with no faith at all and he wanted to become a Sikh and for us to get married in a Sikh Temple even though I didn't even ask him to. I have known him for four years and in that time he has also learnt flaunt Punjabi and he really does have a genuine interest to explore it further.

When this was brought up with the leaders at these temples they said this cannot take place because he is not 'Indian' Erm so does that mean the only Sikhs in the world are all Indian?

Basically, I was absolutely shocked at the attitude when I asked for an explanation their excuse was 'oh it’s because we get backlash from the community for why we let it happen’ surely as leaders shouldn’t they be promoting tolerance and that our faith is not a discriminating one? They then went on to ‘lecture’ my parents on not bringing up their kids in the 'right way' whatever way that is and what relevance that has I don't know.

If the temples are going to be like this then they will eventually shrink our faith and the Islamic faith will grow because it allows anyone to join regardless of their background, they will be the most dominating religion in the world soon if not already and faith play to them.

Our temples seem to be built on a caste and race system which is going against what our true faith believes in. It seems to me that it’s not the faith they are worried about shrinking if mixed marries happen but more the caste numbers which is all cultural. Should Sikh temples not allow members of the community and others who want to join have access to their services and course obstacles instead?

I have always attended and donated but will I be doing it again - no because I feel the leaders are not representing our faith that does welcome all so now they have lost two more people.

Soho Road Temple was invited to the Jubilee celebrations and to sit inside and participate. If the Queen said no you are not of my faith so you will not be invited how the Sikh temple and its community would feel - this is why she is the peoples Queen and she had to change with the times. I think the Sikh temples should take a very big lesson from that and not practise covert racism which is what it is.

I would like to gain others view on this for or against as mixed marriages are on the raise and this is a fact so what should the Sikh temples do and why should it have anything to do with the faith that doesn't state it’s not allowed.

Parm77,
Marriage for the people of Indian origin in general and hindus and sikhs in particular is almost an once in life and most auspicious occasion.
Some Sikh gurdwaras allow what you want and some do not. Who do not, they have their on reasons or problems or ideology. You don't need to nor can change their mentality.I mean to say you had and have a choice so go for what serves your purpose.It was as simple as anything.There was no need to invite inauspicious comments from different corners on such an auspicious occasion.
People who say that how children from inter-religious wedlock will look like should think more about the fact that how their own coming generations will like in changing world trend which is irreversible.
I wish you all the best.

[Jaybee]

Thanks for the link. I have very well read the Sikh Rehat Marayada therefore, let me point out to Article XVIII that is under the consideration of the debate.

b. A Sikh's daughter must be married to a Sikh.

e. When a girl becomes marriageable, physically, emotionally and by virtue of maturity of character, a suitable Sikh match should be found and she be married to him by Anand marriage rites.

http://www.sgpc.net/rehat_maryada/secti ... leven.html

According to clause b and e, a Sikh woman has no right to get married on basis of her own choice since she is to be married off by the will of her parents. Notice how specifically these clauses are written in particular about women and not men.

This fundamentally dissolves women of her own choices and enables the practice of having women married off against their own choices. How do you justify that?

Your questioning of my freedom of expression and conscience is unfounded.

Hi Serjinder, I'm not a Sikh, but even I can see that it's YOU who is questioning the very tenets of your own faith. You have excercised your freedom of expression in so doing. Now, either accept your own faith, or leave it.

Moderator comment: 'Rehit Maryada' quoted above is a 'Victorian-era' code of conduct. It was written as a guideline, overdue for an update. It is not a "faith" manual. Sikh faith is universal, like air. People need to learn about Sikhi before posting their intrusions that are often disguised as questions. The moderators have to tread a thin line allowing free speech. Disguised attacks on the Sikh practices will have to be disapproved at some point. You are forewarned.

This reaction towards suppressing the free thinking of others is clerical and is motivated to deny the rational assessment of presence of misogyny and male chauvinism within our society which you feel threatened from questioning of others and which fundamentally inclines humans towards primitivism, violence and destruction. There should not be any place for this destructive and dominating tendency to define our society.

Hmmm. It's clear to me that you have a glaringly feminist agenda to hawk. Why? What caused this? My guess is that you've studied Sociology/Women's Studies etc for a few years at University and have been infiltrated by feminist lecturers. Well, let me be the first to tell you; female "equality" is a modern myth. Our two genders were created differently by Him, and rightly so. One quick glance down my boxers is enough to confirm I am not equal to a woman. You want to impose female 'equality' on a species that, at the most basic genetic level, doesn't accomodate it. Despite what your lecturers dreamed up in their wishful thinking, the reality is that the first toy nearly all 1-2yr old girls pick up when given a free choice out of a box of toys isn't GI Joe, but Barbie. They didn't tell you that, did they? But that's a FACT. And on it goes throughout life; look at your own university. I can bet the soft 'science' classes were filled with girls, but look at the Avionics/Physics courses.

LIFE itself is not about some kind of gender 'equality' you want to impose, so don't expect it in your faith, either. Therefore, the woman in question has no explicit right to marry in a Gurudwara. It's not the faith that needs to be changed, it's the individual. Both her, and YOU.

Now, let me ask you this, as I'm not great with Punjabi first names and can't yet distinguish between male and female ones (surely an irony, ha!) and a quick Google of images of 'Serjinder' proves inconclusive, are you a man, or a woman?

[Nihal Singh Kanakpuria]

b. A Sikh's daughter must be married to a Sikh.

e. When a girl becomes marriageable, physically, emotionally and by virtue of maturity of character, a suitable Sikh match should be found and she be married to him by Anand marriage rites.

Sher Dil Ji,

That's a direction to the Sikh Girls parents, that's not a direction to Sikh girls , so how is a Sikh women being denied a right to choice ?

In my opinion Param77, etc should be feeling more upset at other Sikh women who have married Non Sikh men in gurudwara's and have done little or nothing to pass on Sikh values to their children.

If you look at it , why would a Gurudwara not allow inter-religion etc marriages if there was evidence that Sikh values are not getting diluted, there is no reason to disallow it , in-fact they would be more than happy to conduct the ceremony.

So blaming the gurudwara's isn't right at all, the blame has to be shared by Sikh women, married to Non Sikhs, who do little to pass on their Sikh values to their children after getting married in the Gurudwara's.

-Nihal

[Romesh Kumar]

Now, let me ask you this, as I'm not great with Punjabi first names and can't yet distinguish between male and female ones (surely an irony, ha!) and a quick Google of images of 'Serjinder' proves inconclusive, are you a man, or a woman?

Please let readers know the member your post is addressed to.There is no member with Serjinder id or name. There is one Serjinder Singh which is a punjabi/sikh male name. But the post your reply sounds to be inline with is that of Sher dil which could be a male or female.

[deepharn]

In continuation of my previous mail, and prompted by sherdil and Romesh kumar, I would like to add the following -

Let us listen to SGGS Ji, on role of mother for a child - Jin har hriday Nama na basioh tin maat kijhe har bhanjah ( page number of SGGG Ji, I don't remember but it is a common human that comes) . The meaning of this line is that the mother of a child whose heart is not blessed with gods praises, should have been barren.

Please remember that the issue of child and Param77is not my suggestion, but it came from original post of param77.

To sherdil
Now, on sikh reheat maryada and sherdil - hope you had more history, Sikh history, sociology, at least as much as the words of your vocabulary - that (e)clause which you are reading is a blessing for a girl for the following reason- in many cultures, including that of India, girls would be committed to mar rage at a very childish age even before they attained puberty. Did you know this? Sikh gurus, and reheat maryada is specifically saying, don't do that until she attains lady hood.second, it means, consensus of parents. Third, it implies that a girl should not do things which isolates her in community, according to me. Can you attain bliss, leave aside spiritual bliss, by annoying your own parents, who gave you birth.

Now on treating girls as child producing machines. Neithr did i say nor implied but if you have some knowledge at least as much as your vocalbury! You would know many countries in the past and even now, including uk, incentivize females to produce children, more the merrier. Again read history, and build it like you have built your vocalbury, and know what incentives uk was offering to women to produce children and why?

Now on freedom to women or any body? What?freedom? Religion is controlling your vices and anything that fuels those vices! Did you know that. Basically, religion is to discipline you and your mind. You want to be a brat and love to be everywhere every time. Sorry, religion tellls you to be disciplines. And telling women (men) that you have all the freedom then what will happen - they want to try everything, sleep with fifty men (women) from fifty countries. Then end up in depression for a life time. If you are from a western country, tell me if i am wrong? Do you think guru, SGGS, will prescribe this or should do this.

Now on your discussion skills? Why do you digress so much from the main topic - and bring in all sorts of other things- Like
Denying sewa at golden temple, etc etc. What has this to do with this issue of param77. Do you know that Sikhism is the only religion that provides a women total spiritual equality. There could be social problems which could crop up here and there. In your local Gurudwara, is there any prohibition for a women to do any sewa on any day, including her special days. Sorry, try to read more, a few knee jerk expressions, and a few choicest words don't convince a reader that you.

Finally, if any one has a view on Sikh reheat maryada, and the wisdom of SGGS Ji, you could write to SGPCand seek clarification. I think, according to the rules of this forum, we should respect the basics and avoid using clever, sly and cunning methods to undermine, torpedo, hurt or weaken the faith, hiding behind the so called freedom of speech, please.

My sincere, humble and two hand folded submission to the mModerator sSir too. Sikh reheat maryada may be of Victorian vintage for you, not for me, who has travelled and lived in western civilization for many years and find it useful. It anchors the Sikhs and guides the Sikh sangat. We are happy with it.

Thanks.

[Sher dil]

Jaybee,

Hmmm. It's clear to me that you have a glaringly feminist agenda to hawk. Why? What caused this? My guess is that you've studied Sociology/Women's Studies etc for a few years at University and have been infiltrated by feminist lecturers. Well, let me be the first to tell you; female "equality" is a modern myth. Our two genders were created differently by Him, and rightly so. One quick glance down my boxers is enough to confirm I am not equal to a woman. You want to impose female 'equality' on a species that, at the most basic genetic level, doesn't accomodate it. Despite what your lecturers dreamed up in their wishful thinking, the reality is that the first toy nearly all 1-2yr old girls pick up when given a free choice out of a box of toys isn't GI Joe, but Barbie. They didn't tell you that, did they? But that's a FACT. And on it goes throughout life; look at your own university. I can bet the soft 'science' classes were filled with girls, but look at the Avionics/Physics courses.

That doesn't make any sense. Just because women are different from men biologically doesn't make them men and women unequal to each other as human beings. In fact, the kind of biological determinism you are using in essence to justify inequality against women as human beings is unfounded and misogynistic

Nihal Singh ji,

That's a direction to the Sikh Girls parents, that's not a direction to Sikh girls , so how is a Sikh women being denied a right to choice ?

Of course, that's a direction to the Sikh parents because a woman is implied to live by the wishes of her parents. She has no choice. This translates into forced marriages, humiliation against women, honor killings, female infacticide and women reduced chattel of the society.

deepharn,

that (e)clause which you are reading is a blessing for a girl for the following reason- in many cultures, including that of India, girls would be committed to mar rage at a very childish age even before they attained puberty. Did you know this?

Of course, I know this. But that doesn't makes our society is any better than those societies in terms of treating women. Women have been married as children in many societies but in our society, women are denied their adulthood even when they are adults and thus are advised to be married off like children. How do you justify that?

I find it preposterous that owning the choices of daughter should be considered a spiritual blessing for a daughter. It is
male chauvinism and domination against women as form of spirituality. .

Now on freedom to women or any body? What?freedom? Religion is controlling your vices and anything that fuels those vices! Did you know that. Basically, religion is to discipline you and your mind. You want to be a brat and love to be everywhere every time. Sorry, religion tellls you to be disciplines. And telling women (men) that you have all the freedom then what will happen - they want to try everything, sleep with fifty men (women) from fifty countries. Then end up in depression for a life time. If you are from a western country, tell me if i am wrong? Do you think guru, SGGS, will prescribe this or should do this.

Is religion a monopoly of clerical men who are going to decide what is freedom for rest of us? It is not for you or me to decide what is freedom for others and how to discipline others. Everyone has the right to their own conscious as a human being and everyone has the right to himself and herself and it is not for disguised male chauvinism as religion to decide how and with who should we live our lives. This is not religion but male chauvinism.

Sikhism gives the right of consciousness to men and women alike that makes them equal in every respect as a human being however, our society is dominated by chauvinistic male dominance within itself that is responsible for our downfall in many spheres.