Sikh Temples view on mixed marriages

[deepharn]

Param77',
Interesting. You seem to be a very intelligent person but I don't understand your logic.
God is everywhere and if you want to get married in Gurudwara to gets gods blessings, then that is not very logical. You can get married anywhere, god is inside you and your Chinese fiancée too. So why worry and all this hassle. I still don't see logic in your argument.

Also, you were earlier married in a Sikh Gurudwara when you would have sought all the blessings that are avaialble in a gurudwara to a Sikh gentleman and he turned out to be no good, so why worry about those blessings now. Just go ahead, according to me.

If your objective is to get married to a non-Sikh, just go ahead, why invoke ceremony in a Gurudwara. I am not able to see the purpose. Is Gurudwara a shopping mall that any body can come and set up a shop. Suppose, tomorrow two non-Sikh friends of yours would like to get married there, then what should the gUrudwara authorities do? Gurudwara is a common property of the Sikh community bound by local and some SGPC rules, mainly in the interest of Sikh community at large. I am surprised that you want them to change the rules, just because of you.

By getting married in a Sikh Gurudwara your fiancée will pick up incentive to become a Sikh, does not sound too impressive. If he was interested to become a Sikh, or you were interested that he becomes a Sikh, by now the story would have been different.

Regarding your children and their coming into Sikhism, if you are allowed to get married in Gurudwara, seems too far fetched, and too imaginative, as of now. Children of such marriages, 100 percent of the time in my sample and seen through experience, will be non-Sikhs. Incidentally, why you think your children will not prefer their fathers ideology of no religion.


Regarding your contributing to Gurudwara in the past, I am surprised at your logic. We're you contributing that one fine day, you will arm-twist them?

My suggestion, happily get married without any delay. Then guide the Sikh males, why you kicked them and preferred a non-Sikh, so that they learn how to woo and keep their females happy. At present, in your uk and rest of the world, numerous Sikh females are choosing non-Sikh partners, and it will be beneficial, especially, for Sikh males to know, where are they lacking. That will be a help please.

Thanks

[Serjinder Singh]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Sikh Anand Karaj or wedding ceremony in the Gurdwara was held rarely in a Gurdwara during the past several hundred years. This practice began in the west over half a century ago on the pattern of Christian weddings taking place in a church. Sikh weddings were held in the bride's houses by respectfully bringing a bir (copy) of Guru Granth Sahib ji invariably installed under a large tent weather permitting. So, there was no need to have any rules on this topic. Sikh Rehat Maryada appeared in first half of the last century, even then the emphasis was on the couple being both sikhs but not much about the wedding in a Gurdwara because this practice was rare.

Sikh weddings upto the end of nineteenth century were mostly between Amritdhari Sikhs and non-baptised females so the concept of both being Sikhs was not possible because females were not given Khande di Pahul, even now Takhat Hazoor Sahib and Takhat Patna Sahib discourges this as did the Takhats in Punjab prior to twentieth centuries.

So, the current rigidity didn't exist earlier. This came into being when Singh Sabha movement began focusing on Sikh exclusiveness imitating the same narrow attitudes of other faith followers. Our family males for the past nine generations have been Amritdharis but only my mother was the first female to be Amritdhari Sikh with a 'Kaur' second name but all earlier females did not have 'Kaur' as second names. Suffice to say none of them were married in a Gurdwara.

If Soho Road Gurdwara does not agree feel free to ask other Gurdwaras such as the oldest one in Smethwick or in Handsworth etc. I attended a ceremony only last Saturday between a Sikh boy and a Hindu girl without the Gurdwara authorities making any fuss.

Humbly
Serjinder Singh

[Sher dil]

A. You must be aware that Guru Gobind Singh bestowed gurugadhi to guru
Granth Sahib ji. Now for a moment think that guru Gobind Singh ji is
sitting in the Gurudwara as a guru, and you go and tell me that I want to
get married to this Mr. China ji. According to you what do you think Guru
Gobind Singh ji will tell you.

This is pure and simple insult, prejudice and racism. It is a bigotry for others to be humiliated by the damnation of neurotic someone else's neurotic concoctions.

People have the right to marry who they want and the way they want.

[NSJ]

In my humble opinion being comfortable with mixed marriages at the Gurdwaras or anyplace else is all about overcoming our own personal prejudices and narrow mindedness and it has nothing to do with religion. I find it shocking when some people try to justify their personal bigotry as something that Guru Sahiban would approve of. Their views are crystal clear about one God, one creation, all human beings as same. They would not have refused to marry any two human beings who came to them to be wed in the presence of God because of the couple’s religion. Dasam Pita, the creator of Khalsa himself says in Jaap Sahib:

ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਕਰਮੰ ॥ ਨਮਸਤੰ ਅਧਰਮੰ ॥
नमसतं अकरमं ॥ नमसतं अधरमं ॥
Salutation to Thee O Deedless Lord! Salutation to Thee O Non-Religious Lord!

Serjinder Singh Ji has summarized the background of Maryada well. The social guidance it provided was heavily rooted in the Punjabi culture of the 18th and 19th centuries. It has served its purpose to organize the Panth during a difficult period. Sikhi is now firmly rooted and spreading all over the world slowly but steadily among all races and nationalities.

The question now is how we want to treat our next generation that has had secular upbringing in the east or west. Do we want to keep them connected to their heritage, faith and community? So that little by little with Guru’s grace they will grow on the path to Sikhi, or do we turn our backs on them by casting them out of our Gurdwaras when they need the love and support of their community the most to mark important milestones of their life.

Who are we to judge the past, present or future level of commitment to Sikhi of any one? To say to someone that you must convert to get married at a Gurdwara with the blessings of the Guru and Sangat is not any version of Sikhi any of the Guru Sahiban had preached.

Some social guidance given in rehat maryada is outdated and has become detrimental to the interests of today’s worldwide Sikh community. The guidance of SGGS is eternal and will forever guide the Sikh community.

[Punjabi G]

I pretty much gave up arguing over this fuss as people continue to project their own views as Sikh views in general without any evidence or support from Gurbani or Sikh history.

Interestingly enough, yesterday I ran into one of such couples at Gurudwara where girl was Sikh and groom was non-Indian, non-Sikh. I had attended their wedding in the same Gurudwara few years ago. They had a new born baby and they brought the baby to Gurudwara for "Matha tekauna" and ardas ceremony for the new born. Once again I was wondering about all the fuss and what exactly are these people trying to achieve by "banning" inter religious marriages in gurudwara.

Please find Gurudwara which can perform the service without any fuss and support them. As they are truly following Sikh teachings.

[deepharn]

Moderator Note: This discussion is beginning to get personal and prejudiced. All sides should kindly refer the discussion guidelines. If this continues the thread will be closed. Thanks in advance for your kind cooperation.
quote="Sher dil"]

A. You must be aware that Guru Gobind Singh bestowed gurugadhi to guru
Granth Sahib ji. Now for a moment think that guru Gobind Singh ji is
sitting in the Gurudwara as a guru, and you go and tell me that I want to
get married to this Mr. China ji. According to you what do you think Guru
Gobind Singh ji will tell you.

This is pure and simple insult, prejudice and racism. It is a bigotry for others to be humiliated by the damnation of neurotic someone else's neurotic concoctions.

People have the right to marry who they want and the way they want.[/quote]

I am surprised at this schizophrenic response. What is neurotic about this - why can't you see guru Nanak or guru Gobind Singh in Guru Granth sahib, especially when you are in Gurudwara.

Yes, people have the right to marry anyone they like and the way they want. But Not where ever they want. To illustrate, can someone marry at tinnaman square or buckingham palace. No. As also at many other places that you can think of.

Why, when it comes to gurudwara, why every one wants to change everything, irrespective of community rules, Sikh reheat marayada or SGPC rules. There are 24 million Sikhs, so should we have 24 million Sikh reheat maryadas or 24 million gurudwaras?

Thanks

[Sher dil]

why can't you see guru Nanak or guru Gobind Singh in Guru Granth sahib, especially when you are in Gurudwara.

How do you see them? We don't go to Gurdwara to worship them. That's your own viewpoint. The last I checked with history Guru Gobind Singh and Guru Nanak don't exist in this world however, it is you who think they do exist.

Yes, people have the right to marry anyone they like and the way they want. But Not where ever they want. To illustrate, can someone marry at tinnaman square or buckingham palace. No. As also at many other places that you can think of.

Do you seriously believe people have the right to marry anyone? You have tried your level best to humiliate and insult the choice the woman on this forum who has chosen to marry a non-Sikh. Calling someone's fiancee as Mr China ji can't be more respectful than anything.

Does it not make you think that the concoctions you are making to insult others choice are simply an indication that you are not treating people right?

Your assertion of disallowing marriage of a woman to a non-Sikh in Gurdwara is another way of disapproving her choice. Plain and Simple. And, using Guru Gobind Singh in the picture makes it even more bizarre. Yes, I did check the SGPC Rehat Maryada and it says that a Sikh woman cannot marry a non-Sikh (although a Sikh men can) and therefore am not surprised to say that it practices the same kind of prejudice against women by denying women the choice of their lives. How do you justify that?

[deepharn]

why can't you see guru Nanak or guru Gobind Singh in Guru Granth sahib, especially when you are in Gurudwara.

How do you see them? We don't go to Gurdwara to worship them. That's your own viewpoint. The last I checked with history Guru Gobind Singh and Guru Nanak don't exist in this world however, it is you who think they do exist.


I dont understand. Then who gave gurgadhi to SGGSJi. Cant you see your ten gurus, in SGGS ji. For you, ok, they don't exist. For many others they exist in SGGS ji.

quote - Do you seriously believe people have the right to marry anyone? You have tried your level best to humiliate and insult the choice the woman on this forum who has chosen to marry a non-Sikh. Calling someone's fiancee as Mr China ji can't be more respectful than anything.

Does it not make you think that the concoctions you are making to insult others choice are simply an indication that you are not treating people right?

What? I don't understand - what would you have called param 77''s fiancée from china. Some other name/reference? What?

Second, more importanly, on substance. Do you understand what param77 is telling you? Just think it over yourself.

Her statement can also be interpreted as follows - She is telling you young sikhs that you Sikh males are useless creatures - she has chosen a male who is from a different culture and has no religion. What does it imply? Born and brought up in Sikh family, she has lost faith in Sikh males and therefore she has chosen a male who has no religion?

So, in contrast, her post can easily be interpreted as follows - she is insulting all of you young Sikh males, if you can understand and some self-esteem. And in the uk and the us and in many other parts of the world, many Sikh females are preferring to marry non-Sikh males. Yes, every body has a right to marry any one, that is not being questioned. Have you ever thought of finding out why Sikh females are marrying non-Sikhs, and explicitly saying that on elite Sikh websites?

That is the more important issue that young Sikh males like you should be worried.

And have you seen, in a male dominated world society, a Sikh looking child of a non-Sikh father, ever? I have not seen until today.

Thanks

[swarn bains]

it is your card to play. how much devotion u have to your faith and how much love u have for the jatt girl. decide so that u do not have to repent later. god bless u and fulfill your desire

[NSJ]

Her statement can also be interpreted as follows - She is telling you young sikhs that you Sikh males are useless creatures - she has chosen a male who is from a different culture and has no religion. What does it imply? Born and brought up in Sikh family, she has lost faith in Sikh males and therefore she has chosen a male who has no religion?

So, in contrast, her post can easily be interpreted as follows - she is insulting all of you young Sikh males, if you can understand and some self-esteem. And in the uk and the us and in many other parts of the world, many Sikh females are preferring to marry non-Sikh males. Yes, every body has a right to marry any one, that is not being questioned. Have you ever thought of finding out why Sikh females are marrying non-Sikhs, and explicitly saying that on elite Sikh websites?

That is the more important issue that young Sikh males like you should be worried.

And have you seen, in a male dominated world society, a Sikh looking child of a non-Sikh father, ever? I have not seen until today.

Thanks

deepharn ji,

I may be speaking out of turn but have you considered that vast majority of Sikh parents frown upon their children dating, arranged marriages are expected. It is not easy for young Sikhs to date each other and not become the target of negative gossip in the community. Therefore, most of the dating is done away from the shadow of the community with outsiders by both Sikh boys and girls.

Being raised in patriarchal culture the Sikh boys even the ones who date (and their parents) still want a “good girl” who has never dated and are more accepting of the arranged marriage. So the so called “bad girls” who date and want to find their own partners end up finding partners outside the community (and in most cases against their parents’ wishes). Most of these girls are highly educated and independent minded and they are looking for more than just a “religious” match. Some are lucky enough to find it internally many are not. So if you want to reverse this trend then attitudes towards dating within the community and especially towards the girls must change. Are you ready for it, and want to spearhead this change?

And on another note, I can actually visualize Dashmesh Pita sitting at the place of SGGS and happily presiding over Anand Karj ceremony of a mixed couple who requested that honor. Guru Sahiban saw the light of God in all human beings no matter what caste, race, nationality or religion. However, I could never visualize Dashmesh Pita ordering anyone to convert to seek his approval.

The Maryada on this topic is influence by the patriarchal Punjabi culture and the communal/religious tensions of that time; it has nothing to do with the eternal message of Ek Onkar: http://www.sikhnet.com/news/meat-matter

My appeal to you Sir is to open up your heart and your Gurdwara to one and all without prejudices as the Guru Sahiban intended. Thank you for listening.