Why were there no women gurus

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Re: Why were there no women gurus

Postby harmanpreet singh » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:44 am

our guru sahib have emotions of womens also
ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੫ ॥
Shalok, Fifth Mehl:

ਹਰਣਾਖੀ ਕੂ ਸਚੁ ਵੈਣੁ ਸੁਣਾਈ ਜੋ ਤਉ ਕਰੇ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ॥
O deer-eyed bride, I speak the Truth, which shall save you.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਬਚਨ ਤੁਮ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਛਬੀਲੀ ਪਿਰੁ ਤੈਡਾ ਮਨ ਸਾਧਾਰਣੁ ॥
Listen to these beautiful words, O beauteous bride; your Beloved Lord is your mind's only support.

ਦੁਰਜਨ ਸੇਤੀ ਨੇਹੁ ਰਚਾਇਓ ਦਸਿ ਵਿਖਾ ਮੈ ਕਾਰਣੁ ॥
You have fallen in love with an evil person; tell me - show me why!

ਊਣੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਝੂਣੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਸੈ ਵਿਹੂਣੀ ॥
I lack nothing, and I am not sad or depressed; I have no deficiency at all.

ਪਿਰੁ ਛੈਲੁ ਛਬੀਲਾ ਛਡਿ ਗਵਾਇਓ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਕਰਮਿ ਵਿਹੂਣੀ ॥
I abandoned and lost my fascinating and beautiful Husband Lord; in this evil-mindedness, I have lost my good fortune.

ਨਾ ਹਉ ਭੁਲੀ ਨਾ ਹਉ ਚੁਕੀ ਨਾ ਮੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਦੋਸਾ ॥
I am not mistaken, and I am not confused; I have no egotism, and commit no offense.

ਜਿਤੁ ਹਉ ਲਾਈ ਤਿਤੁ ਹਉ ਲਗੀ ਤੂ ਸੁਣਿ ਸਚੁ ਸੰਦੇਸਾ ॥
As You have linked me, so I am linked; listen to my true message.

ਸਾਈ ਸਹਾਗਣਿ ਸਾਈ ਭਾਗਣਿ ਜੈ ਪਿਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰੀ ॥
She alone is the blessed soul-bride, and she alone is fortunate, upon whom the Husband Lord has showered His Mercy.

ਪਿਰਿ ਅਉਗਣ ਤਿਸ ਕੇ ਸਭਿ ਗਵਾਏ ਗਲ ਸੇਤੀ ਲਾਇ ਸਵਾਰੀ ॥
Her Husband Lord takes away all her faults and mistakes; hugging her close in His embrace, He embellishes her.

ਕਰਮਹੀਣ ਧਨ ਕਰੈ ਬਿਨੰਤੀ ਕਦਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਆਵੈ ਵਾਰੀ ॥
The unfortunate soul-bride makes this prayer: O Nanak, when will my turn come?

ਸਭਿ ਸੁਹਾਗਣਿ ਮਾਣਹਿ ਰਲੀਆ ਇਕ ਦੇਵਹੁ ਰਾਤਿ ਮੁਰਾਰੀ ॥੧॥
All the blessed soul-brides celebrate and make merry; bless nanak as well with a night of bliss, O Lord. ||1||

bhul chuk maaf
ਤੈ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਜਿ ਆਖੈ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਆ ਦੀਜੈ
says Nanak, what shall I give to Him who brings mesage of lord for me

ਸੀਸ ਵਢੇ ਕਰਿ ਬੈਸਣ ਦੀਜੈ ਵਿਣ ਸਿਰ ਸੇਵ ਕਰੀਜੈ
Cutting off my head, I give it to Him to sit upon; without my head, I shall still serve Him
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Re: Why were there no women gurus

Postby TheClerk » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:52 am

What a great question that I have asked and have been asked numerous times.

pawandeep84: Why shouldn’t we ask such questions?

Often times there are no concrete answers . . . but at the very least these questions have caused you to think on both a logical and spiritual level. What is the harm in that?

lotus lion: Your response is very logical, and likely.
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Re: Why were there no women gurus

Postby suraj » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:04 pm

To my mind the first Sikh was a woman, Bibi Nanki, Guru Nanak Dev Ji's sister.

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Re: Why were there no women gurus

Postby pawandeep84 » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:38 pm

TheClerk wrote:What a great question that I have asked and have been asked numerous times.

pawandeep84: Why shouldn’t we ask such questions?

because by intoducing "WHY?" you r questioning Akal Purakh's will................. what akal has done, is right no need to question it, no need to be in ambiguity about this.

jo hai jiven hai sahi hai (w.r.t our Gurus)

just imagine if all our guru would have been women, then also some would have same question in mind that why no man is our guru ????

as akal purakh cant be define as man or woman.......agree??
"jahara murat akal purakh di Guru Gobind akhvaya" ........... does it make any difference that if akal purakh take image of a man OR woman to give a message to the mankind....?????...... i think .... NO

so thats y i think we should not spent time in searching for such questions which have no answers.....
< ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖਾਲਸਾ, ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਿਹ
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Re: Why were there no women gurus

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:59 pm

WJKKwjkf, i feel this was nt the question to make u cant keep such questions it was akal puraks will ,pls dont confuse people discuss valid points
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Re: Why were there no women gurus

Postby TheClerk » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:07 am

Monty: I'm sorry, I didn't understand what you stated? Could you please re=phrase.

And like I asked earlier . . .What's the harm in questioning? Perhaps that is also a road to God, through questions, and the answers an individual may come to.
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Re: Why were there no women gurus

Postby New Age Singhni » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:35 am

What difference does it make if there we no women gurus in the physical body aspect ?

Gurbani clearly states

"Purakh mai naar naar mai purakha"

Female is in the male, male is in the female.

The Guru's physical embodiments were born out of women, nurtured by women, guided by women.

Women have a very powerful status in Sikhi; let's understand that. Guru Sahib states that Everyone is born out of a woman and there is none without her - meaning she is the creative power in the world.

The world was not evolved in the literal sense of equality to the stage that a female Spritual Leader could hold up at the time. It still hasn't. May be it never will ; but that's okay. Equality does not mean same ness.

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Re: Why were there no women gurus

Postby drdln » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:34 pm

Very good question. But no good answer. Not even sincere attempt except Lotus Lion.

There is no record of woman initiation at Vaisakhi of 1699 either.

Women those days were mostly house-holders. They took care of the children and house chores, IMHO.

Not being burned with husband (satti) was equality enough in those times. Equality of women didn't mean the same as we have today. Learned Members may expand more....

Guru Sahiban wanted us to use god given intellect; and to be a good learner (sikh), we have to question.

Pehle vasat pehchan key, phir kijey biopar....
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Religious wars are creation of fanatics!"
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Re: Why were there no women gurus

Postby vikramjit gurufateh singh » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:11 pm

Fateh Ji,

If one is to go through Sikh History one will realize the change that Sikhism brought in the role of Women and the vital role of women in Sikhism.

I repeat my analogy .... no woman became Guru because Waheguruji did not Will so.

For any complaints you know Who to contact!

Guru Rakha
kabeer kookar ram ko mutheea maero nao ||
Kabeer, I am the Lord's dog; Moti is my name.
galae hamarae jaevaree jeh khinchai theh jao ||74||
There is a chain around my neck; wherever I am pulled, I go. ||74||
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Re: Why were there no women gurus

Postby Serjinder Singh » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:33 am

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Manvir Singh Khalsa ji wrote:

[quote]Additionally, after the 3rd Guru passing on Guruship to 4th Guru all following Guruship remained within the family. THere is a sakhi that states it was the request of one of the daughter's of the 3rd Guru. The fact is that All of the Guru's after the 4th Guru had only Son's.

Now people can blame inequality, but the facts of the matter are there is a 50/50 chance of a boy or girl being born, either XX, or XY. It just so happens that the Guruship remained in one house, one family at the request of 1 woman, and it just so happens that in passing the lineage of the Guru occurred due to the fact that only son's were born in this family.

Additionally, other's will point out the argument that due to the role of the Guru having to commit to the people of that time, it would have been difficult for a woman to be Guru and to have kids, meaning that up to over a year at a time would be taken out of Guruship duties. But again, the situation never arose because daughter's were not born.

In my opinion, the Sakhi of the 3rd Guru is the Truth, in that a woman (daughter of 3rd Guru) requested the Guruship to remain in the family, and subsequently son's were born and due to the request the Guruship was passed in this manner. So in actual fact it was a woman who determined the Guruship from 5th-10th Guru's.[quote]

It is not true that no daughter was born to Gurujis after 4th guruji. Sixth Guru ji had a daughter Bibi Viro

According to Encylopaedia of Sikhism, Ed. Harbans Singh, Punjabi University Patiala (article by Gurnek Singh )

"Bibi Viro born 1615 was daughter of Guru Hargobind ji and Mata Damodari at Amritsar on 11 July 1615. She was married to Bhai Sadhu, son of Bhai Dharma a Khosla Khatri of village Mall."

Similarly sixth Guru ji Har Rai had a daughter Rup Kaur, the entry in Encylopaedia Of Sikhism (article by Bhagat Singh) above is as follows:

"Bibi Rup Kaur commonly believed to be the adopted daughter of Guru Har Rai, was according to Bhatt Vhai (Talaunda), his real daughter born to Mata Sulakhani on 8 April 1649. She was married on 3 December 1662, to Khem Karan, son of Bhai Per Mall, a Dhussa Khatri of Pasroor in present day district of Sialkot(now in Pakistan). The young couple, however, settled at Kiratpur itself in the house now known as Gurdwara Manji Sahib, where some of the Bibi's personal articles are preserved as sacred relics. Bibi Rup Kaur had a son, Amar Singh, whose descendents are now living at Dialpura Sodhian in Patiala district."

This proves that despite there being female descendents in the Guru families they were not given GurGaddi. Thus, it wasn't the absence of female descendents as the reason for there not being female Gurus.

Incidentally, it negates another assumption that before the tenth Guru ji Sikhs were not called 'Singh' or 'Kaur'. Here we have the case of Bibi Rup Kaur and her husband Amar Singh as well as Panjab Kaur wife of Ram Rai the elder son of Guru Har Rai ji showing the fact that this practice was there already although tenth Guru ji made it a regular part of Khande di Pahul baptism.

For females 'Kaur' second name was not compulsory it appears as we find Mata Sundari ji and Mata Sahib Devan ji not having Kaur as second name even long after tenth Guru ji (Their numerous letters or hukamnamas are available in which they give their names without 'Kaur' second name.). I do not believe they were not baptised. Albeit if they were not baptised then it would mean that Amrit ceremony was mainly for males.

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