Is Giving " Panj Paira Prasad" to Women such a Heresy

[Nihal Singh Kanakpuria]

SSA,

Even though i dispise the idea of banning people from visiting a gurudwara, i think women should be given panj piara parsad and should be doing whatever men are allowed to do in the gurudwara.

I don't understand why are the we being so insecure ? . At one end we are complaining that women are marrying out of the community and in the same breath we don't want to completely include them in the functioning of the gurudwara and sikh faith.

Maybe the more women do in the gurudwara the more they will be concerned about the the situation and take greater responsibility about changing the situation.

The role of women was very different in society 300 years ago and there were other priorities like figthing for justice , preaching peace and sometimes just surviving.

The intensity of a lot of those ills are gone, we hv a established justice system (may not be perfect), mainstream society believes in letting everyone follow their own faith etc etc.

So why are we still in the same old rut ?. I think Sikh Women should fight for their right and hopefully very soon we shall see a women Head Granthi in Golden Temple.

[WindsorSikh]

According to SGGS we are all equal regardless or sex/age/caste. I think females should be allowed to do everything that men are allowed to do. I think some tradition got started in India from cultural influence where female was not considered equal to men. Those tradition has no place in Sikh religion. I think it is high time that females should demand equal rights from all Sikh Gurdwaras and management bodies. A person who considered himself a Sikh and follows SGGS has no moral right to deny equal rights to female that includes becoming Head Granthi, doing Pang Paira seva and everything else.....

[5ikh]

According to SGGS we are all equal regardless or sex/age/caste. I think females should be allowed to do everything that men are allowed to do. I think some tradition got started in India from cultural influence where female was not considered equal to men. Those tradition has no place in Sikh religion. I think it is high time that females should demand equal rights from all Sikh Gurdwaras and management bodies. A person who considered himself a Sikh and follows SGGS has no moral right to deny equal rights to female that includes becoming Head Granthi, doing Pang Paira seva and everything else.....

If you drop the "I", then you would be able to understand why woman cannot be in Punj Pyare, Windsor Sikh. Follow the Gurus teachings and we will be the TrueSikhs. Remeber Sri Guru Gobind SIngh Sahib ji said as long as the Khalsa is following my teachings I am with them. If they don't then I am not on their side. Certain sects like 3ho and laid back 'Sikhs' took it upon themselves to defy the Greatest Khalsa teaching and played as the Guru here.

Who are we to put in woman in Punj Pyare when Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji never did ever in his time on earth? We are the Sikhs of the Guru, not the Guru.

[Raie]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa! Waheguru ji ki fateh!

I just wanted to make a few comments about 'history,' and the sometimes unquestioning admiration for it's role in our present lives.

Yes, history can provide a base from which to act, a legacy of powerful lessons and examples of how to live a gursikh life. However, history is a collective creation formed by many people at many different levels of spiritual awareness and with many different life experiences (ie both by Gurus and by imperfect humans trying their best to live according to God's will). Often, it is primarily formed by those with the most power in a society, and that power is not always gained justly (as evidenced by the attempted cover up of the 1984 genocide, i.e. the 'creation' of history by those with more power).

In this way, history is a complex story!! It is often difficult to trace where certain practices came from, which ones have truly descended from Guru Gobind Singh ji, and the Gurus before him, and which have come from outside, less 'pure' influences.

Is it possible that certain practices have entered into Sikhi that are not authentically Sikh? Ones that are deviations from the core teachings of Guru Nanak ji and the Gurus after him? We can see in the present day that certain things which are practiced now in Sikhi, are not true to the core values (i.e. the caste system). If it is possible now, why wouldn't it be possible in the past? In fact, there are examples throughout Sikh history of sects, where the members have been criticized for deviating from these values.

The question then becomes, how can we determine that a practice in question is actually one that has been proscribed by the Guru's, and therefore is authentically Sikh? Is the fact that 'we' practice it, and that it has been practiced for as long as we remember enough evidence that it is maryada?

Especially in the case of a practice (i.e. Panj Piare only being composed of men) that seemingly contradicts values outlined in the Guru Granth Sahib ji (gender equality), it is incumbent upon those defending such a practice to bring forward more solid evidence then that fact that it has been practiced in 'history.'

Finally, it is beyond frustrating to continually read that because no woman stepped forward on the original Vaishaki, that therefore they have no right to be a part of the Panj PIare. There are many, many possible reasons why that did not happen (one being that women are socialized to be humble, to not take up space, to not step forward when other men are around. or that they did not feel worthy enough to give their lives to Guru Gobind Singh ji. or the more obvious possibility that they were busy preparing langar for after the ceremony.)

The point is that we don't know why that didn't happen, and to pretend that we do, and that in addition to claim that this was Guru Gobind Singh ji's intention, that we somehow KNOW what is happening inside of his mind is, I feel, arrogant. This is in addition to the claim made by 5ikh that Guru Gobind Singh ji never put a woman in the Panj Piare in his lifetime (how do you know? because that occurrence was never written down? or do you have access to a writing that says he never did?). I don't mean to downplay the importance of oral tradition in this case. However, please remember that history has been overwhelmingly written and created by men. And men are more likely to write about other men. And this isn't to assign blame, because both men and women are socialized to value (and therefore see more easily) the contributions made by men throughout time.

Is this context, isn't it fair to look more closely at this practice? To keep an open mind, and look with new eyes at all of the evidence we have before us, with the hopes of carrying out Guru ji's will for us here in earth?

[Jas4raj]

Who are we to put in woman in Punj Pyare when Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji never did ever in his time on earth? We are the Sikhs of the Guru, not the Guru.

5ikh ji,
Can I ask you what / who do the Panj Pyare represent? (I dont mean the original Panj Pyare).

[Bundha]

Finally, it is beyond frustrating to continually read that because no woman stepped forward on the original Vaishaki, that therefore they have no right to be a part of the Panj PIare. There are many, many possible reasons why that did not happen (one being that women are socialized to be humble, to not take up space, to not step forward when other men are around. or that they did not feel worthy enough to give their lives to Guru Gobind Singh ji. or the more obvious possibility that they were busy preparing langar for after the ceremony.)

There are many instances where we have very strong women in our history, from Mata Bhago to the mata's who served in Mir Manus jails and they never deviated from the right path. So we have many strong women and there is no reason why they could not have stepped up to the mark on Vaisakhi 1699, but they did not.

This is in addition to the claim made by 5ikh that Guru Gobind Singh ji never put a woman in the Panj Piare in his lifetime (how do you know? because that occurrence was never written down? or do you have access to a writing that says he never did?). However, please remember that history has been overwhelmingly written and created by men. And men are more likely to write about other men.

If this was the case then we would not have heard of Mata Bhago and such like, infact it is a matter of pride that we have such strong women, so if there had been any women in any of the panj piyara at the time of Guru Ji then it would have either been documented or orally passed on. Oral traditon cannot easily be rubbed out, if there were women in any of the panj piaray at the time of Guru Ji then we would have heard of it or read it as a matter of pride. But there never was, Guru Ji did not include them in any Amrit sanchars during His time, we should take stock of this rather then start wondering off due to our manmat .

[swarn bains]

Woman is the mother of a man. So why she should not get parsaad first as pang piaraas. whoever has objection to it is an egotistic male animal.

[bored]

women is sikhi get just as equal respect as a man. THose who are trying to justify that only males can make up the 5 pyare are being very ignorant and lack basic understanding of sikhi.

For all those pro male dominace folks out there i ask you to make sense of this...according to your analogy, if the origional 5 pyare were only males that stood up in sacrafice to their guru, and this is enough to justify that they should remain males, then according to the same analogy I would ask,

'since the origional 5 pyare were Bhai Daya Singh, Bhai Dharam Singh, Bhai Himmat Singh, Bhai Mohkam Singh and Bhai Sahib Singh then maybe all 5 pyare should be strictly based on individuals with these same names'

just as you are willing to use the originality of thier gender to justify your claim, then why is my argument of keeping the origionality of thier names the same today not valid?

its not, nor is your claim correct...its plain ignorant to think like that.

Sikh something.

[Gaganjeet]

So all these people who dont want women as Panj Pyare say that guru wont accept women till the world exists? So many incidents in gurus life where he has taken the sinners im his arms - 40 mukte.

[Bundha]

The first amrit took place Vasakhi 1699, Guru Ji ascended the heavens 1708, that is a period of nine years.

How many amrit sanchars took place within this period ? Straight after the first sanchar on vaisakhi 1699
the sanchaars carried on for weeks afterwards so that all Sikhs could initiate into the Khalsa panth. From
1699 to 1708 so many sanchars took place under the personal guidance of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Did any of these sanchars have a female in the panj piaray?

If there had been we would certainly have known about it. Something like this would have been documented,
if other aspects of Guru Ji's life are well known and so much is known of this period then this would have been
documented, IF it had happened.

So, if Guru Ji never included any female in the amrit sanchar from 1699 to 1708 what right do you have to do this ?