Why Khalistan is a BAD Idea..

[JasbeerSingh]

JasbeerSingh

Looking at how India is going today, the only way that Sikhi will survive in south Asia is by the creation of Khalistan. It is interesting that a Sikh from India who is sitting today on the powder keg of a country becoming increasing anti-minority, anti-dalit and anti-human rights is looking at reasons against the creation of Khalistan. Contrary to Romesh Kumar, the Sikhs do not need India as many millions have shown by voting with their feet and making a success of their lives in the west. The fact is that many of these Sikhs are pro-Khalistan and these Sikhs aren't as the Indian propaganda machine would have gullible Indians believe, in the employ of Pakistan's ISI or making money out of Khalistan, it is their concern for the future of Punjab and the Sikhs that makes them aspire for Khalistan. If you do not believe in Khalistan then you need to change the last lines of the Ardas as these lines are the clearest declaration of Sikh sovereignity available. There is no need for a declaration of Khalistan or a Sarbat Khalsa to declare Khalistan. Guru Gobind Singh made us a sovereign people and the fact that we are not free today is caused by us falling short of the aspirations that Dasmesh Pita had for us.

Ok if his is the only way Sikhs will survive.. Do you really think that Sikhs whose population have swelled to 5 million outside Punjab in India will also survive, as I have asked above how can we ensure their safety? Also, I fail to understand you openly back Pakistan, how can you forget Nanakana, Lahore the most essential part of Sikh Kingdom in past and the cleansing that Pakistan has done of it's Sikh populace and the fact that they never allowed Sikhi to grow in their country? First of all nothing is clear as to what constitutes Khalistan many people say present state of Indian Punjab, many say India's Punjab, Haryana & Himachal and then for many groups the Entire Punjab of Pakistan along with India's Punjab, Haryana, Himachal has been shown as Khalistan.. then some say Khalistan will have it's boundaries till Kutch?? I find no synchronicity or consistency.. And on the top many will say that where purity rules there is Khalistan.. It is really difficult to analyse what Khalistan is.. I don't know on which side you are on. But my first comment was answer to all such notions as to why it is a bad idea and how it is least likely to survive as nation.. Guru Gobind Singhji declared us sovereign then that applies to all Sikhs, isn't it? Why everything is expected from India's Sikhs? Now tell me those sikhs who back Khalistan ,will they leave USA, after Donald Trump's election? The Sikhs who are passionate for khalistan must answer this.. Why all things applies to Indian Sikhs only.. why not to take some responsibility by khalistan sympathisers residing abroad also.?

[JasbeerSingh]

I never have seen a manifesto or political discourse. The only thing I have heard are some quotes from Guru Granth Sahib or ardas. There is always harking back to Ranjit Singh's kingdom. Well!!. It is all in Pakistan. Is the idea to take over Pakistan?

So in the Indian Punjab what is the grand plan my friends? We have Khalistan. How is the government going to function? Aaah tax of course. Who you going to tax to do sarbat ka bhala. You need money my friends. Revenue. How you going to communicate with outside world? Oh, through Pakistan because you have just told India to go away in very rude no uncertain terms. So, Pakistanis are killing each other at the moment. Look at the news. Shia places of worship are being suicide bombed, Shia family prayer gatherings are being sprayed with bullets. So you want to rely on them? Where will you get money to pay transition fees? Ask Americans what Pakistanis did to them on transition fees. Aaaah, so you will pay jazia. That is one way. Well who will you tax to raise the revenue? The poor dirt farmers. That is it. Grind the poor farmers to ground while you guys swan around wearing chola and Kirpans and chanting sarbat ka Bhala.

For heavens sake, think things through. Why do you think Khalistan movement failed? Why didn't the ordinary people of Punjab support it? Why did it happen straight after chhhatisgarh massacre of Sikhs? People sitting comfortably in their nice warm houses, eating their nice food in the western countries are supporting it. Pakistani government with a few khalistanis living a comfortable life paid for by Pakistani government are supporting it.

You want a viable Khalistan then Let us have some intellect on the job, and not a few slogans. If you must have slogans then base them on something original. I know 11year old school boy with Better idea of how to make nations work?

Gurmailji,

Thanks so much for sharing your ideas and viewpoints I agree fully and back them wholeheartedly. The real need of the hour is to pull Sikhs out of materialism that we all are deeply drowned in, specially in Punjab the show-off is such a routine that it takes heavy toll on finances, psyche and spiritual well being. let's get back our ideal Sikhi and be gurmukhs instead of manmukhs

[Bik1999Singh]

JasbeerSingh

Where have I supported Pakistan? Pakistan was the biggest disaster that befell the Sikhs in the first half of the 20th Century which was further compounded by the suicidal decision made by the Sikh leadership to join India instead of struggling for Khalistan in 1947. You need to dispense with the notion created by the Indian propaganda machine that being a supporter of Khalistan automatically means that I support Pakistan. In my previous post I advocated the break up of BOTH India and Pakistan as a better solution to the present impasse of two nuclear armed fascist states whose arrogant leaders could at any moment set off a nuclear war which could decimate all of South Asia. Having 20-30 smaller states devoid of nuclear weapons would be a better outcome for .

Your claim about the 5 million Sikhs shows that you have also subscribe to the Indian colonial carrot and stick policy with regard to the Sikhs inside and outside of Punjab. The Indian colonial rulers starting with Indira Gandhi have always used the vulnerability of the Sikhs outside of Punjab as a lever to ensure that the Sikhs of Punjab behave and do not demand their right to self determination. In the Indian colonial set up of today if you are one of those 5 million Sikhs outside of Punjab in the rest of India, unfortunately you are a hostage and your safety is only ensured provided the Sikhs of Punjab remain mere mute spectators to the loot of their homeland by the Indian colonial state.

Interesting enough these 5 million and not evenly distributed across India. The vast majority still reside in areas close to Punjab and if probably 85% of all Sikhs in India live within Punjab and in areas very close to the state.

You seem to be extremely frustrated as you believe that the Sikhs abroad are a part of some conspiracy to make the Sikhs in India suffer because the Sikh abroad support Khalistan. As I stated before, contrary to the Indian propaganda that you have been fed, there is no Pakistani gravy train that dispenses money and resources of the Khalistan supporters abroad. What the Khalistan supporters want is for the Sikhs of Punjab to be free from the Indian colonial set up. To be free to use their resources both human and natural to benefit their own free country and to not be a colony of India which provides the raw materials and the added value goes outside of Punjab. The Punjab with the talent of its people which has been amply demonstrated whenever Sikhs come abroad and make a success in every field and yet in Punjab all you have is the youth addicted to drugs and alcohol and Indian colonial state sucking the life out of the people.

One of the great ironies I see in Sikhs today is that our religious teachings above all other religions aspire to create a state based on the the welfare of all. At one point in history we achieved this and although it might not have been perfect but yet it was miles ahead of what existed in South Asia at that time. Why have Sikhs today lost that aspiration which Guru Gobind Singh so carefully cultivated? Why have we lost sight of our destiny which is to be practice the teachings of the Gurus through the creation of political power and are now content to be a second rate people with massive social problems caused mainly by our acceptance of second class status in the artificial state created by the British and left to their cronies ?

[JasbeerSingh]

Gurmail Singh

That's a lot of loaded questions along with a lot of assumptions. Yours in the typical 'Indian' response. While Sikhs are great as cannon fodder and jokers for the sake of Bollywood but any time that Sikhs want freedom from India suddenly we are capable of nothing and don't even know our own minds. For me anywhere where Sikhs enjoy freedom then there is nothing that they cannot achieve. Freed from the slavery of the Indian state and it's colonial set up the Punjab/Khalistan can become a beacon of light in South Asia. All political commentators agree that if just one part of India or Pakistan breaks away the whole edifice of Hindustan/Pakistan will come crashing down. This is what can happen, free states like Baluchistan, Kashmir, Assam, Tamil Nadu, Sindh etc. Khalistan when it is created will not be a state enclosed by India and Pakistan but a state bordering other free states which have achieved freedom from the colonial states of India and Pakistan.

The access to the sea argument is a pretty outdated one given today's high tech globalised world. Khalistan will not be at the mercy of both India and Pakistan trying to sells it agricultural produce to the rest of the world. The greatest resource that Punjab will have is its population. They can make a success of their lives no matter where they settle yet under the Indian colonial set up, they are just cannon fodder for the Indian colonial state or captive customers for the drug and alcohol mafias controlled by the Indian state. Free from the grip of these mafias and with the benign government and with the aid of the global Sikh diaspora, Khalistan can actively become a hub for the new emerging technologies.

Really ironic that on one hand u ask gurmail to not assume much but then you yourself assume far too much imagining that India and Pakistan will come crashing down once khalistan is made. I tell you what is the differece between the freedom demand of Khalistan and rest of the other states.. None of them is based on Religion, their independence will mean that all citizens of it's state.. when you talk of Khalistan you fail to notice that 43% of Punjab in Non-Sikh and forty percent being Hindu and no Hindu Punjabi supports this.. And then I cannot understand how can you downplay access to sea problem? India will certainly close it's borders so we will be dependent on Pakistan for sea access and which may prompt them to arm twist khalistan anytime and squeeze it financially, even China a big superpower in today's world has to agree to so many demands of Pakistan as they are building their Highway for accessing sea through Gwadar Port, what say will a small nation like khalistan will have, it's amusing to think even that.. Hence, Things aren't that easy and upbeat as you project and as usual you fail to answer that how can five million Sikhs be accommodated in Punjab which is hardly 50,000 sq km afterall if Khalistan i made then anything few Sikhs will like to remain in India as this will naturally make environment hostile for them there.. An Ideal Khalistan will not leave 5 million Sikhs at the mercy of fate, isn't it?

[nanuckpunthee]

Before 1980s the concept of Khalistan was more like a joke. When some people took it seriously in 1980s it started with the killings of Hindus in Punjab and repercussions from outside Punjab.

For me, being a Sikh living outside Punjab in India, the concept of Khalistan looks disastrous. As we have already experienced in 1947 and partly in 1984, my family might be raped or killed, however IF LUCKY I have to leave all my property and earnings and has to start my life from scratch. Now we do not have any third authority like British, so Khalistan will be more like a warzone like ISIS and again there is no certainty of the safety of my family in Khalistan. IF LUCKY, I might end up in some Western country as a refugee and the existence of my family will be a political agenda for some Trump or Le Pen. Now Khalistan is of no use for me IF I AM LUCKY !

Also I do not interpret 'raj karega khalsa aaki rahe na koi' as an istruction to create some Sikh majority Nation State in North West India and kill all non-Sikhs in it. For me it is a soverignity of an individual with faith in the spiritual kingdom of my Sache Patshah which is above all these worldy empires and states.

[JasbeerSingh]

Where have I supported Pakistan? Pakistan was the biggest disaster that befell the Sikhs in the first half of the 20th Century which was further compounded by the suicidal decision made by the Sikh leadership to join India instead of struggling for Khalistan in 1947. You need to dispense with the notion created by the Indian propaganda machine that being a supporter of Khalistan automatically means that I support Pakistan.

But then tell me sir.. why is Pakistan's crime Ignored? Why is there no hue and cry over Pakistan's Punjab which has lahore, Guru Nanak's birthplace at Nankana it looks surprising that it's always India which is in radar of Khalistanis, is Pakistan excused of all the crimes that it committed? Well it seems so, because when we talk of Punjab the biggest Punjab is still in Pakistan you can google and compare the area (even if you include Harayan & himachal).. Why isn't Pakistan targeted like the way India is? In all your comments the target has been mostly India and it's colonial attitude, why is there hardly any mention of Pakistan and it's fanatic Islamic attitude? Why is it that khalistanis get so much hurt when anything is done by India but are mostly indifferent to the fact that Pakistan cleansed it's Sikh Population and never ever allowed The Sikhs to grow in Pakistan.. doesn't it seem ironical to you that the India whom you accuse of crushing Sikhs and their religion has the highest number of them living in India besides Punjab?

In my previous post I advocated the break up of BOTH India and Pakistan as a better solution to the present impasse of two nuclear armed fascist states whose arrogant leaders could at any moment set off a nuclear war which could decimate all of South Asia. Having 20-30 smaller states devoid of nuclear weapons would be a better outcome for

Well your opinion in this regard won't matter sir, this was the wildest assumption that you are taking

Your claim about the 5 million Sikhs shows that you have also subscribe to the Indian colonial carrot and stick policy with regard to the Sikhs inside and outside of Punjab. The Indian colonial rulers starting with Indira Gandhi have always used the vulnerability of the Sikhs outside of Punjab as a lever to ensure that the Sikhs of Punjab behave and do not demand their right to self determination. In the Indian colonial set up of today if you are one of those 5 million Sikhs outside of Punjab in the rest of India, unfortunately you are a hostage and your safety is only ensured provided the Sikhs of Punjab remain mere mute spectators to the loot of their homeland by the Indian colonial state.

But does that mean that we jeopardise their lives, I am from Punjab bro and I care for all the Sikhs who live outside Punjab, so whatever may be the case the fact is there are still sikhs outside of Punjab even if I take your statement of 15% far from Punjab I don't understand will khalistan not care of them? what is the use of such Khalistan that cannot assure guarantee for their lives.. What I can make out is you are trying to put the blame on those sikhs as if it's their mistake to get settled in other Parts of India.. I don't second this viewpoint Sir..

You seem to be extremely frustrated as you believe that the Sikhs abroad are a part of some conspiracy to make the Sikhs in India suffer because the Sikh abroad support Khalistan. As I stated before, contrary to the Indian propaganda that you have been fed, there is no Pakistani gravy train that dispenses money and resources of the Khalistan supporters abroad. What the Khalistan supporters want is for the Sikhs of Punjab to be free from the Indian colonial set up.

There is no as such any Indian propaganda I talk pure on facts, and neither I believe that all Sikhs from abroad want khalistan but if my question for them is if they really care for the Indian Sikhs to get free as they pretend, why don't they come to India and fight for it if they really feel that? Pakistan will always be in the dock because of their continuous verbal support for Khalistan in spite of the fact that they themselves occupy Lahore and Punjab and talk as if they are biggest wellwishers of Sikhs, Then the fact that Khalistanis don't show any anger against Pakistan's crime on Sikhs, neither I have seen anyone demanding the freedom of Sikhs from Pakistan as well, most of them just say for the heck of saying but their anger and frustration never comes anyway near like it is for India.. Why Khalistanis give special status to Pakistan.. Why don't they want the land ruled by Maharaja Ranjit SIngh to be freed by Pakistan?

To be free to use their resources both human and natural to benefit their own free country and to not be a colony of India which provides the raw materials and the added value goes outside of Punjab. The Punjab with the talent of its people which has been amply demonstrated whenever Sikhs come abroad and make a success in every field and yet in Punjab all you have is the youth addicted to drugs and alcohol and Indian colonial state sucking the life out of the people.

To answer this question I need to ask you which Khalistan are you for.. Indian Punjab or India's Punjab, Haryana, Himachal.. or Both India and Pakistan's Punjab because till date so many people say so many things and there has been no concensus on the boundaries hence it becomes tough to get any idea so let me know which you are for then only I can reply to that..

One of the great ironies I see in Sikhs today is that our religious teachings above all other religions aspire to create a state based on the the welfare of all. At one point in history we achieved this and although it might not have been perfect but yet it was miles ahead of what existed in South Asia at that time. Why have Sikhs today lost that aspiration which Guru Gobind Singh so carefully cultivated? Why have we lost sight of our destiny which is to be practice the teachings of the Gurus through the creation of political power and are now content to be a second rate people with massive social problems caused mainly by our acceptance of second class status in the artificial state created by the British and left to their cronies ?

Welfare of all? When your tone suggests that you actually don't care for 5 million Sikhs in India outside Punjab I don't think that there is any point in discussing the ideal of Sikhi that indeed believes in "Sarbat da bhala".. If Khalistan is really Welfare as you suggest why Punjabi Hindus still oppose it.. Khalistanis must convince them too for Joining this.. I don't think that if Khalistan is really is about Welfare of all anyone would oppose it.. Hence till date so many Hindus of Punjab that form a huge chunk of Punjab's population see it as terrorism that means there is a big flaw in it.. They are the same Punjabi Hindus who throng Gurdwaras in India but then are die hard opposers of Khalistan while the ideal Khalsa Raaj will literally see Welfare of all instead of having hate for the opposers..

[gurmail]

I get it now. The idea is to free Baluchistan, Kashmir, Sindh, Assam, few more states say Pakhtunistan, and then create Khalistan. Is the idea to merge east Punjab with west Punjab? What will be done with odd 50 to 80 million Punjabi muslims? We could share. But muslims will be majority!! And they have atomic weapons. We will only have kirpans. We will have two options then. One is become muslims or other is be subjugated by them. Like the minorities now in Pakistan. Funny how minorities keep on commiting blasphemy in Pakistan. You'd have they would know better. Wouldn't you? Personally, this is a bad option. A very bad option indeed. I am soooo glad and thankful that our ancestors decided to stick with India.

There is another option you could pursue if you set your mind to it. One could bring sarbat ka bhalla to all Indians. You will have to join an existing secular party or set up your own. Then the whole country is yours to help. Take the case of Manmohan Singh. A minority party leader who sets up a coalition of all sort of people, I won't say what kind. He was pulled left and right up and down, sideways but he stayed the course with great humility of a true guru's Sikh. Look at his achievements. I cried the day he got his food programme for the school kids through. What a beautiful example of Guru ka Langar. I call that sarbat ka bhalla. If you look at it then you will see that Khalistan is already there before you. All it needs is application of Sikh values.
But the sea is very big and if we are only small fish then fear stops us and we prefer to stay in our own little pond where we can be big fish.


Most people still call him names.

[Bik1999Singh]

Really ironic that on one hand u ask gurmail to not assume much but then you yourself assume far too much imagining that India and Pakistan will come crashing down once khalistan is made. I tell you what is the differece between the freedom demand of Khalistan and rest of the other states.. None of them is based on Religion, their independence will mean that all citizens of it's state.. when you talk of Khalistan you fail to notice that 43% of Punjab in Non-Sikh and forty percent being Hindu and no Hindu Punjabi supports this.. And then I cannot understand how can you downplay access to sea problem? India will certainly close it's borders so we will be dependent on Pakistan for sea access and which may prompt them to arm twist khalistan anytime and squeeze it financially, even China a big superpower in today's world has to agree to so many demands of Pakistan as they are building their Highway for accessing sea through Gwadar Port, what say will a small nation like khalistan will have, it's amusing to think even that.. Hence, Things aren't that easy and upbeat as you project and as usual you fail to answer that how can five million Sikhs be accommodated in Punjab which is hardly 50,000 sq km afterall if Khalistan i made then anything few Sikhs will like to remain in India as this will naturally make environment hostile for them there.. An Ideal Khalistan will not leave 5 million Sikhs at the mercy of fate, isn't it?

Both India and Pakistan are artificial countries created by the departing British. They contain a number of nations which when controlled by a foreign colonial power made sense to amalgamate into a super-colony but as nation states they have virtually zilch that unites the people. Pakistan has tried religion is the binding factor but in East Pakistan language had a much potent force and hence Bangladesh was created. India and Pakistan are more like USSR and Yugoslavia which when the crunch came collapsed like the house of cards they were. Over 50 years of propaganda about there being a 'yugoslav' nation did not save the country from breaking up into its constituent nations such as Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia etc. Slogans like 'unity in diversity' won't save India when the crunch comes.

You mention that 43% of Punjab is non-Sikh. The thing to consider who did that become so? It was the mass killings of Sikh youth in the 80s and 90s and the settlement of migrants from UP and Bihar. Similar things occur in other oppressive and fascist states where the majority attempt to wipe out or outbreed a minority in order to keep that minority perpetually enslaved. But in none of these countries do any members of that minority actively support the policies of these masters but the fact is that there are Sikhs in India who will accept whatever oppression their masters will heap on them.

[Bik1999Singh]

Before 1980s the concept of Khalistan was more like a joke. When some people took it seriously in 1980s it started with the killings of Hindus in Punjab and repercussions from outside Punjab.

For me, being a Sikh living outside Punjab in India, the concept of Khalistan looks disastrous. As we have already experienced in 1947 and partly in 1984, my family might be raped or killed, however IF LUCKY I have to leave all my property and earnings and has to start my life from scratch. Now we do not have any third authority like British, so Khalistan will be more like a warzone like ISIS and again there is no certainty of the safety of my family in Khalistan. IF LUCKY, I might end up in some Western country as a refugee and the existence of my family will be a political agenda for some Trump or Le Pen. Now Khalistan is of no use for me IF I AM LUCKY !

Also I do not interpret 'raj karega khalsa aaki rahe na koi' as an istruction to create some Sikh majority Nation State in North West India and kill all non-Sikhs in it. For me it is a soverignity of an individual with faith in the spiritual kingdom of my Sache Patshah which is above all these worldy empires and states.

Khalistan ( also known as Sikhistan) as concept has been around since the 1930s and you might not know that rather than a joke as you put it the Sikhs very nearly managed to carve it out in 1947. You might wish to further your knowledge of just how very nearly we got Khalistan in 1947 during the partition violence. It was the lack of a strong Sikh leader that we could not achieve what the Jews achieved in similar circumstances a year later. The Sikh masses and the leadership were for a Sikh state and it was the machinations of Nehru and Gandhi and their false promises that made the Sikhs case their lot in with India. Accepting the false promises of Nehru meant that we lost our most valuable land (56% of all land in Lahore district was owned by Sikhs). I suggest you read more on 1947 because you will realise how convinced the British were that Sikhs will successfully declare Khalistan around October 1947 after they had evicted the Muslims of East Punjab and taken in the Sikh refugees of West Punjab. The British West Punjab governor was writing warning letters to Jinnah warning him that the Sikhs had tactically withdrawn from West Punjab and after regrouping would invade and take back their lands in West Punjab. Khalistan was far from a joke in the eyes of these men.

You state that Khalistan might mean the rape and murder of your family but you have already had that in 'free' India. What India did to the Sikhs in 1984 eclipses what the Sikhs suffered under the Mughals and Afghans and yet no sane Sikh today would say that we should have stayed as subjects of the Mughal empire but there are Sikhs today cannot envisage anything for the Sikhs apart from continued slavery and loot of their resources by the Indian colonial state.

[Bik1999Singh]

I get it now. The idea is to free Baluchistan, Kashmir, Sindh, Assam, few more states say Pakhtunistan, and then create Khalistan. Is the idea to merge east Punjab with west Punjab? What will be done with odd 50 to 80 million Punjabi muslims? We could share. But muslims will be majority!! And they have atomic weapons. We will only have kirpans. We will have two options then. One is become muslims or other is be subjugated by them. Like the minorities now in Pakistan. Funny how minorities keep on commiting blasphemy in Pakistan. You'd have they would know better. Wouldn't you? Personally, this is a bad option. A very bad option indeed. I am soooo glad and thankful that our ancestors decided to stick with India.

There is another option you could pursue if you set your mind to it. One could bring sarbat ka bhalla to all Indians. You will have to join an existing secular party or set up your own. Then the whole country is yours to help. Take the case of Manmohan Singh. A minority party leader who sets up a coalition of all sort of people, I won't say what kind. He was pulled left and right up and down, sideways but he stayed the course with great humility of a true guru's Sikh. Look at his achievements. I cried the day he got his food programme for the school kids through. What a beautiful example of Guru ka Langar. I call that sarbat ka bhalla. If you look at it then you will see that Khalistan is already there before you. All it needs is application of Sikh values.
But the sea is very big and if we are only small fish then fear stops us and we prefer to stay in our own little pond where we can be big fish.


Most people still call him names.

A Muslim West Punjab free from Pakistan and the Khalistan free from India can be good neighbours. Just as all other successor states freed from the Indian and Pakistani colonial state can be. There is no need for a merger, just good neighbourly relations and not as you have now non-Punjabi pygmy politicians taking tough knowing that in any war their own states will be safe and it will the Sikhs and Punjabis that will suffer.

Indian rule means the death of Sikhi and the wiping out of the coming Sikh generations through drugs and desertification of Punjab through the loot of its natural resources. Look at what 70 years of Indian rule has done to Punjab and yet you want it to continue?

Moderator Note: This topic has extended beyond its scope, supporting separatism among Punjabi Muslims in Pakistan. It will be closed at 8pm MDT on 11/28/16. Everyone please post final thoughts by that time. Thanks.