Is Sikhi all about hairs?

Discussions on various aspects of Sikhi
JasbeerSingh
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Re: Is Sikhi all about hairs?

Post by JasbeerSingh »

In case if I have caused any unintentional hurt to anyone I apologize. It was not my intention at all neither it was because of irritation nor it had any undertone of personal attack I am a Sikh myself, but as a Sikh it baffles me specially when I am speechless in front of non-sikhs who try to label our great spiritual tradition by saying that old dogmas got replaced with new dogmatic beliefs, as a Sikh to whom I go for answers? To my own people right? sikhnetdotcom is full of intelligent, dedicated rational Sikhs who I believe are the best people to consult for such confusions. Sikhi was indeed a breakaway from all dogmas it's an irony on one hand we all are fond of quoting Guru Gobind Singhji's hukam of keeping uncut hair, so much so that we start deploring the people who cut their hairs.. then we defend the tradition of keeping surnames, saying that "Oh, That's not a big deal it's their choice" you can see this from comments of most of the Sikhs...while the reality is our Community stands deeply divided over castes, the caste pride stems from surnames actually that's the genesis. My confusion or you can say irritation is why we don't make a hue & cry over this thing when we can make such an uproar over cutting of hairs?

Dear Bundha ji,
Thanks a ton for your reply

I agree kesh are important part of the body. But Guruji instructed us to keep hairs "as it is" and just comb it and keep it clean.. why do we then allow to use chemicals on face like Gels, Fixer with different types of smells just for sticking the hairs to face? I don't understand this logic? The Nature allows the growth of free flowing beard, but as you can judge from above replies no one has problem with those Sikhs who clip their beards, how come this is not transgression of nature?

On one hand you say "No path is right, no path is wrong" then you say about Dalai Lama "that path is going to take longer to reach its destination" aren't you being judgmental here.. how this statement is different from an orthodox Islamist who says only those can go to jannah who believe in Quran or from those Orthodox believers that only Jesus is the way? How is Sikhi different then when we hold our ears like them but just the other way round?

Many other things can be debated but I would like to keep it short and come to the last point of surnames..
My simple question is why we cherry pick our issues? Why doesn't the keeping of Surnames not cause that much problem with sikhs as much as cutting hairs.. Pls don't get stuck up there at this word 'Surname" the broader issue is acceptance of Castes within Sikh fold..While Rehat maryada totally prohibits Castes, racial identities. Sikhs of today mostly identify themselves with Castes and this is very much evident in matrimonial sites, they bear a blunt testimony towards this.

This point of yours is beyond my understanding how can you say for all people of the World again you are trying to view the things from a limited prism
Show any person a picture of a clean shaven man and one who has long flowing beard and hair and most will pick the latter as looking the more spiritual. Subconsciously we know this to be true but in this age of fashion and trends we are too weak to follow this path.
Dalai lama, kalu Rinpoche, Ramakrishna Paramhansa, Swami Vivekanada, Maharishi Ramana, the various Jain Munis, the Pope Francis
Sir, I guess people will choose as per their own rehat maryada, for us Sikhs (and may be Muslims too) we can choose a bearded spiritual person over a clean shaven because mostly we are brought up in such environment, one but same is not the case with whole World.. As per me people will choose the one who can satisfy their soul more rather than seeing outer appearances, had this been the case (of people preferring bearded person when it comes to spirituality) Paramhansa Yogananda, Swami Vivekananda, Swami Rama tirtha could not have been successful and popular in the World and specially in USA.
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Re: Is Sikhi all about hairs?

Post by Romesh Kumar »

Jasbeer Singh Ji,
In my own opinion 5K is socio-politico-legal identity of a person
who is or claims to be a Sikh by religion.
In my opinion all other questions, answers, reasons and logic under
this topic do not carry any weight as religion and spirituality are two
different things.
Religious identity of any religion was necessarily not introduced for
spiritual or God realization purpose. It has social, political, cultural
and climatic reasons behind it.
Thanks.
Nihal Singh Kanakpuria
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Re: Is Sikhi all about hairs?

Post by Nihal Singh Kanakpuria »

Romesh Kumar wrote:Jasbeer Singh Ji,
In my own opinion 5K is socio-politico-legal identity of a person
who is or claims to be a Sikh by religion.
In my opinion all other questions, answers, reasons and logic under
this topic do not carry any weight as religion and spirituality are two
different things.
Religious identity of any religion was necessarily not introduced for
spiritual or God realization purpose. It has social, political, cultural
and climatic reasons behind it.
Thanks.
The difference between religion and spirituality is the same as the difference between sex and masturbation, spirituality is self indulging , self involved , about self pleasure and no accountability where as other involves another being, is about us rather then me.

OP,
Sikhi is not all about hair but its an extremely important aspect of it, had there not been emphasis on kesh, the teachings would hv been lost , dismissed or absorbed as part of Hinduism (we have people on this message board who spare no effort to undermine Sikhi and deny it as a separate independent religion).

Nihal
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Re: Is Sikhi all about hairs?

Post by Bundha »

On one hand you say "No path is right, no path is wrong" then you say about Dalai Lama "that path is going to take longer to reach its destination" aren't you being judgmental here.. how this statement is different from an orthodox Islamist who says only those can go to jannah who believe in Quran or from those Orthodox believers that only Jesus is the way? How is Sikhi different then when we hold our ears like them but just the other way round?
A Muslim splits the world into two, the believers and the kaffirs and only the believers will go to Jannah all the rest are condemned. Sikhi is not like this it believes that there are many paths to liberation but some are more direct then others, else what would be the need for Sikhism? I see no contradiction here. Just like there are many rivers all reaching the sea, but some take many twists and turns and meander down to the sea while others have a more direct route. In the same way people do good deeds and charity work which is all really good but ultimately without Naam you will not be liberated.
“God has given this gift. Nanak’s home is filled with only Naam, the Name of Waheguru. ||4||4||” (Ang 1136)
Without Naam, no one can be liberated and merge with God, gurbani is clear about this fact:
“Those enshrined the True Name within their heart, those within is the flowing current of Naam, and those whose consciousness is attached to the vibrations of the Guru's Baani obtain all comforts and liberation from Maya (the illusionary world). O Nanak! Without the Naam, no one is saved; You too swim across to the other side this true way in which there no chance of drowning. ||9||7||” (Ang 1013)
Guru Gobind Singh Ji in Akaal Ustat says that many were sent by AkaalPurkh but all corrupted the true message. Some set themselves up as Kings, others made themselves the sole deity to worship, others introduced smearing of ash and others introduced circumcision. So, the true message is there but it has been altered and corrupted hence it is going to take longer to reach your destination.
My simple question is why we cherry pick our issues? Why doesn't the keeping of Surnames not cause that much problem with sikhs as much as cutting hairs.. Pls don't get stuck up there at this word 'Surname" the broader issue is acceptance of Castes within Sikh fold..While Rehat maryada totally prohibits Castes, racial identities. Sikhs of today mostly identify themselves with Castes and this is very much evident in matrimonial sites, they bear a blunt testimony towards this.
I don’t think it is a matter of cherry picking, there is a lot of emphasis on the oneness and inclusiveness of the faith. I suppose seeing a keshdari one day and seeing him clean shaved the next is quite a dramatic thing to see and once a person has cut his/her hair then it is almost a statement that that person no longer belongs to the faith is quite hard for Sikhs to take and so an emphasis on keeping kesh.

Let’s face it once a person has made his mind to cut his hair it is not because of his love for his Guru is it?
Once he becomes lax in his rehat, however slight that might have been in the first place, and has taken then step to cut his hair, it is a slippery slope away from sikhi and this is what hurts most Sikhs.

In some ways the questions put to you were from those who know that the strength of Sikhi lies somewhat in their adherence to keeping their kesh. It gives us unity and strength, it affirms out allegiance to our Guru and so gives us strength that those on the outside envy so every effort is made by outside forces to undermine this love we have of our kesh. We are called Sardar Ji for a reason, and Sardar Ji’s stand out from the crowd when walking down a crowded street, to some it is seen as a threat hence the reason why Sikhs are oppressed in India sometimes in covert and underhanded ways.

One could say why not have a hue and cry about alcohol which is so prevalent in our culture and is totally forbidden in our faith. Why no outcry here?

Alcohol ruins lives, ruins families, ruins relationships, ruins livers yet I hear only silence. One could say you are cherry picking, but this is not the case as you are passionate about eradicating caste, others maybe passionate about our Sikhs keeping kesh, we all have our battles to fight, yet alcoholism which is so engrained in our culture needs to be routed out as it is such an evil, it leads disease and to bad sangat.

I totally agree with your sentiment on surnames but keeping ones surname does not lead you down the same path as cutting ones kesh or alcoholism. I have to admit I add my surname to my name but that is mainly because this happened when I was very young and now it is on all the documents and accounts, BUT it really means nothing to me, I have no problem with my children wedding from outside our so called ‘caste’ which I do not believe in anyway.

Caste is a real problem in our faith and there is no getting away from it, but when I look back at when I was young it has improved so much. The older generation were really entrenched in the caste system but slowly the next generation are more enlightened most do not care for caste and do not care which Sikh they marry, although there is a hard core of people who place their caste in front of everything, one caste in particular, but I won’t mention its name as the discussion will veer off in another direction.

I had an email discussion with one of these types a little while ago and I was astounded by his entrenched views of his caste and how vile he spewed against all other Sikhs that were not from his caste, every other Sikh was not really a Sikh in his eyes. On a positive there are so many more Sikhs now who find the caste thing irrelevant and slowly these barriers will come down.

Dalai lama, kalu Rinpoche, Ramakrishna Paramhansa, Swami Vivekanada, Maharishi Ramana, the various Jain Munis, the Pope Francis
There is a subtle but big difference between good people who do good deeds and are spiritual and those who are truly connected with the Almighty, I won’t say any more.
I won’t labour the point but if you showed a picture of the Dalai Lama and a person with flowing beard and hair BUT the person did not know who the people in the pictures were then most likely they would choose the latter to be more spiritual.

All our Gurus were keshdari, all our shahids were keshdari. Rishis and Munies are all depicted as keshdari. Mohammad Sahib was keshdari, Jesus was keshdari, Moses was keshdhari. Even Bhagwan Krishan Ji and Sri Ram Chandra Ji were keshdari. Just like Jesus was anglicised and is shown as a Caucasian with light skin and light brown hair, so the Hindus have changed the images of Krishan Ji and RamChandra Ji to look like them, else God forbid, they may have to change their own appearance. Instead change the Guru!
Guru Nanak Dev Ji Guru Gobind Singh Ji Guru Granth Sahib Ji Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.
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Re: Is Sikhi all about hairs?

Post by Guest »

Sikhi is not all about heirs!
Whenever we have a doubt, we should consult only the Guru Granth Sahib Ji to remove our doubts. If you do a search for the word "Sikhi" and meditate on the verses that relate to it, the answer comes.
GurPita Nanak Dev Ji mentioned the definition of who is a sikh on page number 465 in the following verse

"Sikhee Sikhiaa Gur Veechaar"

Sikh is the one who learns from the meditation on the Guru, and the Guru is the word that refers to the Ultimate Creative Energy. Guru Nanak DevJi did jupp on the word "WAHEGURU" and told Bhai Lena to do the same. And by doing so, Bhai Lena became Angad Dev Ji.

According to SGGSji, a Sikh follows the journey by starting with Jupp,then Simran, then Dhyaan, and finally Samadhi into the ONE.

Boy who is asking these questions is a brave, smart, and seeking for the truth soul. He should be directed onto the path prescribed by the First GurPitaJi and seek his own answers.
JasbeerSingh
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Re: Is Sikhi all about hairs?

Post by JasbeerSingh »

Dear Bundhaji,

Thanks for your response

Well I need to correct you the lines of Guru Gobind Singhji where he says that all messangers got corrupted was actually from Bachitra Natak not from Akal Ustat. And Veerji, I think these lines were meant as a sarcasm on the practices of the people belonging to the communities established by the Gurus, not to denounce them personally. because for example Ramanand and Gorakh are mentioned in this list too while Ramanandji's banis are there in Guru Granth Sahib Ji maharaj and we all know that Guru Gobind Singhji prepared the final swaroop of Guru Granth Sahibji hence he could have removed those lines, because history says Guru Arjan was very particular in choosing and adding the banis of Saints while he was preparing the first bir of Guru Granth Sahib.. Gorakh Ji is addressed as Guru in Japji Sahib.

You talked about Akal Ustat let me tell you what Guru Gobind Singhji writes in Akal ustat please have a look at these lines

Source:Akal Ustat
Bani:Tav PrasadII KabitI
The people of France and England revere Thee, the inhabitants of Kandhaar and Quraishis know Thee; the people of western side recognize their duty towards Thee.II habitants of Maharashtra and Magadha perform austerities with profound affection; the residents of Drawar and Tilang countries recognise Thee as the Abode of Dharma.2.254 The Bengalis of Bengal, the Phirangis of Phirangistan and Dilwalis of Delhi are the followers of Thy Command.Gorkhas sing Thy Praises, the residents of China and Manchuria bow their heads before Thee and the Tibetans destroy the sufferings of their bodies by remembering Thee.II

And this is the way he ends:: Those who meditated on Thee, they obtained perfect Glory, they obtained perfect Glory, they prosper greatly with wealth, fruit and flowers in their homes.3.255.
hence when Dasvein paatshaah never made a difference on the basis of external rehat in humans how can we make it and say this path takes long time that path takes less time?
There is a subtle but big difference between good people who do good deeds and are spiritual and those who are truly connected with the Almighty, I won’t say any more.
Bhaaji have u ever read about Ramana Maharishi and Ramakrishna Paramhansa? I bet u haven't, they were not like modern Gurus like we have today.. they lived highly simple life and are revered throughout the World.. and to be very frank they never did any Social work which you can think, they were just loved due to their Love for Ultimate Truth and God.. Pls read their sayings then you will understand what am I saying or what Guru Gobind Singhji was saying.. "Jin prem kiyo ten hi prabh Paayo"


Regarding Castism in Sikhi I think we agree on most of the points, but my question is why don't we denounce it like the way we do it when it comes to cutting hairs? If we are passionate for rehat, how about this basic teaching of rehat Maryada to keep away from Castes.. Sikhs display their castes and we say you are a Sikh because you keep kesh, NO this is not right.. Also answer is applying Chemicals on face to "get the beard Stick" OK?
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Re: Is Sikhi all about hairs?

Post by Romesh Kumar »

Nihal Singh Kanakpuria wrote:The difference between religion and spirituality is the same as the difference between sex and masturbation, spirituality is self indulging , self involved , about self pleasure and no accountability where as other involves another being, is about us rather then me.
That is why and how they become two different things even if purpose and goal is same. Your own comments imply that all the religions are one since purpose and goal is same.Then why do the world have many religions ?
Nihal Singh Kanakpuria wrote:Sikhi is not all about hair but its an extremely important aspect of it, had there not been emphasis on kesh, the teachings would hv been lost , dismissed or absorbed as part of Hinduism
Exactly, that is what I am referring to as socio-politico-legal identity of a religion not that of spirituality.
Nihal Singh Kanakpuria wrote:(we have people on this message board who spare no effort to undermine Sikhi and deny it as a separate independent religion).
They might have their own reasons which do not deter Sikhs from following their religion. Secondly, it is Sikhs who question their articles of faith, which non-Sikhs rarely do. Thirdly, Constitution of the country of origin of Sikhism duly recognise Sikhism as one of the four native Indian religions.
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Re: Is Sikhi all about hairs?

Post by ADS »

It is easy to understand why one should wear helmet.
It is not that easy to understand why one should keep unshorn hairs.

i am sure if anyone of the living Guru is present today among all of us, there must have been +ve reform approved by Guru for his followers. Because Guru like simplicity which Non of us, who argue on such topics can imagine . And thats what make our Gurus outstanding.

The simplicity that every religion propagates is lost with such rules. That is why nothing can ensure the conditions for one to be a good human being.
I don't meant to disrespect anyone.
JasbeerSingh
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Re: Is Sikhi all about hairs?

Post by JasbeerSingh »

ADS wrote:It is easy to understand why one should wear helmet.
It is not that easy to understand why one should keep unshorn hairs.

i am sure if anyone of the living Guru is present today among all of us, there must have been +ve reform approved by Guru for his followers. Because Guru like simplicity which Non of us, who argue on such topics can imagine . And thats what make our Gurus outstanding.

The simplicity that every religion propagates is lost with such rules. That is why nothing can ensure the conditions for one to be a good human being.
I don't meant to disrespect anyone.

I agree it is not easy to understand why one should keep unshorn hairs. Yet I feel we must keep it natural but problem is people approve of clipping the beards applying chemicals, just to look "smart" I guess.. If this is the definition of being smart or acceptable in Guru's eyes I don't understand why create so much noise over those who cut it. The reason cited is mostly Guru Gobind Singhji's Command for keeping unshorn hairs but why his command of removing caste names and keeping singh/kaurs as surnames are totally ignored then? it's been long time I started this thread yet I have to get a convincing answer..
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Re: Is Sikhi all about hairs?

Post by Romesh Kumar »

ADS wrote:It is easy to understand why one should wear helmet.
It is not that easy to understand why one should keep unshorn hairs.

i am sure if anyone of the living Guru is present today among all of us, there must have been +ve reform approved by Guru for his followers. Because Guru like simplicity which Non of us, who argue on such topics can imagine . And thats what make our Gurus outstanding.

The simplicity that every religion propagates is lost with such rules. That is why nothing can ensure the conditions for one to be a good human being.
I don't meant to disrespect anyone.
Rightly said but this is not in Sikh community alone. All the prevailing religions and religious sects in the world have no other option or choice but to focus on external identity to prove themselves different from each other.
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