Want to cut hair, leave amrit after 10 years - please advise

[anongram101]

Sangat Ji,

I became an amritdari/keshdari 10 years ago, but know want to cut my kesh, and become a sahajdari sikh.

I believe that all the saheeds of Sikh, were martyred for freedom, the freedom to be a Sikh, a Hindu or whatever. I don’t think anyone should be blackmailed into being forced to keep kesh, if one chooses to cut kesh – all the guilt tripping is wrong. The Guru’s & Sikhs fought, died, lived for freedom. If one is motivated to become an amritdari then that person should have the freedom to pursue it. If 10 years later, as I am, wants to leave amrit, then why is it made so fundamentally difficult. You can be a sahajdari and still jaap naam, do kirat, and donate 10% (which few amritdari’s do, I only did it one year). And I don’t have to give my reasons for wanting to cut kesh to anyone, thank Waheguru I live in liberal democracy, not a theocratic-police state.

While I don’t wish to give my reasons, I want to solicit arguments for me keeping my kesh. Because in the big scheme of things, is it so wrong, to cut kesh, but still be a god fearing Sikh? When I die, if I don’t go to hell, or 84 lakh cycle, and by some miracle see the Guru’s & Saheeds, I will bow and say “I was weak and unworthy, I did what I could in my life, but I just can’t keep kesh out of fear, guilt, recrimination of fellow Sikhs. I choose to become an amritdari, and 10 years later I cut my kesh, I am a sinner, but whatever I am, I am still a Sikh, be it the most unworthy Sikh.”

Regards,

Anon,

Ps,

I am reasonably educated, intelligent person, and don’t believe cutting my hair will make me outcast, since I may take amrit again in the future. But if people say I am outcast, have commited a cardinal/treacherous sin – I almost feel like saying so be it. Yes I am a wretched manmukh, though all western political philosophy, science is derived by putting the bible and the Abrahamic Gods word aside, and using manmukhi to think of the answers to the fundamental questions of the human condition.

[AS Khalsa]

If you wanted to cut your hair and abandon the vows you made to Guru Maharaj in order that you might become an atheist or something, then I'd say you ought to go for it. No sense in a Nastik bandying about in the blessed Bana after all.

But if you are attempting to do the same with the intention of simply remaining a Sikh, I hesitate to give any decisive responses. I try to live my life outside the clutches of Haumai and self-righteous pontification. It isn't my place to judge or to scorn anybody for attempting to find salvation in whatever way they seek to attain it. This is our duty as Sikhs. But we also have a duty to maintain the integrity of our religion's practices and institutions, such as Amrit Sanchaar.

I cannot help but feel that if we allow people who have taken Amrit to simply abandon the sacred promises they made without any sort of reprimand or punishment, the whole idea of the Amrit Sanchaar is cheapened. It becomes something isn't taken seriously, something that can be taken and then dropped on a whim if there are no apparent negative consequences. It is for this reason that we cannot simply welcome lapsed Amritdharis back to the fold with open arms saying "All is well, you can still be a God-fearing Sikh".

There must therefore be a penalty for breaking a promise which one knowingly and willingly made, and indeed there is. If you give up on Amrit, you do not simply become a Sehajdhari as you used to be. You will become a 'Patit'. The closest approximation to this term in the English language is 'apostate'. Technically, a Patit is no longer considered a Sikh. And I do not believe those who elect to become Patits should feel any resentment about their status. Nobody wronged them. They made a sacred vow in full knowledge of what they were letting themselves in for, and they themselves chose to break it.

If you choose to go ahead with your plans and leave the Khalsa, you will become a Patit and have to perform penance before you are readmitted into the Sangat.

[Bundha]

Anon,

Whose approval are you trying to gain?
If you want to cut your hair, why do you not do it and be damned with it? What do you care what anybody feels?

The truth is . . . . . .you know what you are contemplating is wrong but you want approval, you want people
so say "there there lad all is okay, go on cut your hair everything is fine" you want that approval. I for one
will not give it. You want to cut your hair go do it and get on with your life, what are you here on this site for?

Turn you back on your Guru, you think you will get a chance again to take amrit? not likely. Turn your back on your Guru and then expect to to meet your Guru when you die? You having a laugh aren't yer mate.
It is your Gurus express hukam to keep kesh and panj kakkar, you want to disobey that then go ahead and do it, make as many excuses as you like in the end you know it is wrong, you know it.

[Nihal Singh Kanakpuria]

Anonymous Ji

Why do yo u need arguments or reasoning or convincing ? Its your life and its your wish. Mool mantra says the creator does not discriminate. A human should be a Sikh because they believe in the creator's attribute described in mool mantra and believe in the bani of SGGS not because of guilt or if they think the creator will prefer them over others on judgment day.

Similarly you should be a Amritdhari if you believe in the teachings,values, purity and simplicity of being an Amritdhari, not out of guilt or something.

In Chamkaur when 40 Sikhs wanted to leave Guru Gobind Singh ji and go, he didn't give them arguments or reasoned with them to stay, knowing very well the morale of rest of the Sikhs and the cause itself could get affected. Similarly no one needs to give you any arguments as to why you should remain a amritdhari.

All i can say is that make sure its not just temporary frustration caused by some girls rejection or other peoples prejudism and you are doing this cause you actually do not believe in amritdhari living.

p.s.- I am myself not Amritdhari but a sehajdhari Sikh who doesn't cut his hair.


Nihal

[anongram101]

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

I believe in the institution of amrit, and the extreme, and many, many sacrifices made to establish it and secure the freedom for us to pursue amrit. Bhai Taru Singh ji's example, to me, when I think deep inside my atma, was a stand against the tyranny. Was the saheedi for kesh? or the freedom to keep kesh, be a sikh, and not be compelled/forced to be a muslim. Was not the saheedi in many ways for the freedom to live without compulsion? I don't think its right to be guilt tripped into being compelled to keep kesh. What I believe is that we should fight & die for freedom, and as Human Beings be ready to stand against tyranny. Whether I do 10 japji sahibs a day, or somehow do 250 japji sahibs a day, achieve state of sehaj, have my dasam duvaar open etc... I would never be equal to even a toenail of Bhai Taru Singh.

After all the Gurbani we have been blessed with, is modern day Sikhi for which we the Sikhs of today are responsible for, not enlightened enough to give someone a break, and let them have a hair cut? Or are we as the muslims/christians parading around with hundreds of scriptural verses, condemming all non-believers or even not pure enough muslims/christians to agonising eternities of hell fire and torture?

So if I cut my kesh, I have let down the side.... but the panth in its greatness is infinitely bigger than me, and to be honest, I expect Sikhi to have an exit clause to go back down to god fearing, lowly cut kesh sikh............ as opposed to say, as an example, Islam, that once someone becomes a muslim, if they leave the faith, then under the most straight forward interpretation, they should be executed for the transgression. A Man, a Human Being, and yes a Manmukh (who still fears God, believes in Sikhi) should have a greater degree of freedom.

Kind Regards,

Anon - who wants to cut kesh, without having to risk being a total outcast PATIT.

PS

I fear the recrimination of fellow sikhs, but I truly do not think that I am wrong. I believe in God, in Sikhi, in Sikhi above all religions, it is truly the best way.... but I also believe in 1) The Scientific Method 2) Western Political Philosophy - and all this came from putting ALL religion one side, and trusting in Man, the Manmukh, and using Manmukhi to deduce the answers to life, not being satisfied with what is written in what religion - and it is because of this the western enlightenment, that a better, not perfect, better world came into being. And this is the world we Sikhs take for granted in western countries, and desperately try and escape Punjab to come to.

I sincerely apologize for hurting anyone with the above...

[anongram101]

I accept I could be deeply wrong, and truly wish to be convinced by your posts, rather than cutting my kesh, and God bring down some disaster on me to make me realise I was wrong to leave Amrit. I feel God is speaking to me through your posts, and I have reconsidered my wish to cut Kesh for the time being. In fact I have read the posts made so far, multiple times, trying to deeply absorb the kind messages and viewpoints.

I just want to say my position… why my mind has changed after 10 years.

I believe in Sikhi, as the best of all religions, I believe in The Guru….. but the manmukh side of me says, truly believes, all religion is a good, nay great thing/entity. Religion completes a human being, proverbially lifts man state from beastly to saintly. I don’t dispute this, but believe it. But the Manmukh side of me says there is something better than all religious belief, better than jeevan mukti – that is something that expressed itself in the Western Enlightenment, where men courageously put religion aside, and what religion decreed aside, and put their trust in Man’s mind, in lowly Man, in Manmukhi. It trusted that Man is not this inherently beastly thing, that will run wild fornicating in the street without religion, but without religion (spirituality yes, but without religion, or dogma) can solve the meaning of life. And the fruits of this Western Enlightenment are too long to list, but they are responsible for the technology that allows us to be fed, and clothed, and allow indoor plumbing, prevents us from dying from preventable diseases, propel us to other planets into space, towards the stars in good time.

If men sat around, chanting Jesus, Jesus, or Allah, Allah or Buddha, Buddha, or stressing over religious debates for years (as they do in Iran today, in huge educational cities, mainly devoted to the study of the Quran, and Hadiths) – we would still be riding around on horseback, or most likely, living like peasants in mud huts, under Feudal Lords.
To solve the problems of modern day poverty, of say India, to lift hundreds of millions from extreme deprivation, only Science & Technology can and will do this. And Science & Technology was born in the Western Enlightenment when man temporarily put Religion aside, when man decided to create a Government based on reason, i.e. Manmukhi, and not necessarily what is written in any religion.

So I say spirituality yes, but no to religion.

Religion turns a beastly man into a saintly man. But the ideas of the Western Enlightenment turn Man into God, albeit for the brief time while he is alive. But Mans works live on, it is fact Man walked on the moon for example, does not matter if the Man who actually walked on the moon dies, Mankind did that, and it is our true legacy….. which all religion comes a far second too.

WHO IS GREATER, THE BHAGAT WHO ACHIEVES COMPLETE BRAMGIANI, JEEVAN MUKTI (Which I believe to be real, the idea of complete oneness with God) OR SAY NIKOLA TESLA, ISAAC NEWTON, ANDREW WILES. I say the latters works, legacy is greater, it is beyond Man, it is a true Godhood. When Andrew Wiles after 10 years of single minded effort solved Fermat Last Theorem – that is our true Human Legacy…. Meaning of life. Jeevan Mukti is also the purpose of life, but this is a higher purpose.

I would be very happy to be proved wrong, and again deeply welcome your replies. And I accept that I could with the above be deeply flawed and extremely wrong, and I do have a wish to be proved wrong, so I can live in peace as an Amritdari.

What I am asking is to be put right, for me to continue as an Amritdari without Doubts, without rolling my eyes when I hear Katha, to believe as I once did 10 years ago, to regain that zeal. I believe and cannot live with out Gurbani, but when I now listen to Katha from even recognised Great Sikhs of today, I grind my teeth - and can't but help take it with a giant pinch of salt. My mind screams when I hear Katha “Really, really, that’s how it is…. Can’t you just stick to conventional interpretation, so I don’t have sit here critiquing everything you say, disputing it in my head”

[AS Khalsa]

But the Manmukh side of me says there is something better than all religious belief, better than jeevan mukti – that is something that expressed itself in the Western Enlightenment, where men courageously put religion aside, and what religion decreed aside, and put their trust in Man’s mind, in lowly Man, in Manmukhi.

I agree, Sikhs must not disdain the values of logic and independent thought. Too many Sikhs today peddle the argument that we, with our corrupt minds, are unfit to conjecture as to the nature of morality. I do not believe we are inherently corrupt or sinful. The mind is resplendent and wonderful, not something to be distrusted.

Yes, some of the Sikh scripture says otherwise, but I do not believe everything it says literally and I am not compelled to. Our Gurus did not claim to be speaking on behalf of God when they wrote their Bani [quite unlike the prophets and founders of other faiths]. Gurbani isn't a series of commandments and assertions of truth. Our Guru Sahibaan were men with their own beliefs and opinions, which they duly recorded. Exalted men. Enlightened men. But men all the same.

You and I are in a fortunate position as Sikhs. We do not need to struggle to reconcile our faith with our reason, as someone whose religion propounds some creation myth or some flagrant contradiction to what we know to be true might. I do not believe the values of the Enlightenment, which are also dear to me, discredit Sikhi in any way. If anything, they compliment it. Equality, brotherhood, the freedom of belief, thought and expression. Sikh history is full of examples of all of these.

WHO IS GREATER, THE BHAGAT WHO ACHIEVES COMPLETE BRAMGIANI, JEEVAN MUKTI (Which I believe to be real, the idea of complete oneness with God) OR SAY NIKOLA TESLA, ISAAC NEWTON, ANDREW WILES. I say the latters works, legacy is greater, it is beyond Man, it is a true Godhood.

What is Godhood? Godhood is immortality. When the last human being closes their eyes forever, the legacies of Tesla, Newton and Wiles will fizzle away and disappear into nothing. Just like the names of all the Brahmgianis. So who is greater? Neither. Whose legacy is more enduring? Once again, neither . Saints and scientists are equally mortal and finite.
Any attempt to construct one's own legend and implement a lasting legacy is futile. Godhood is God's alone.

History, consciousness, science. All live and DIE with us.

What I am asking is to be put right, for me to continue as an Amritdari without Doubts, without rolling my eyes when I hear Katha, to believe as I once did 10 years ago, to regain that zeal. I believe and cannot live with out Gurbani, but when I now listen to Katha from even recognised Great Sikhs of today, I grind my teeth - and can't but help take it with a giant pinch of salt. My mind screams when I hear Katha “Really, really, that’s how it is…. Can’t you just stick to conventional interpretation, so I don’t have sit here critiquing everything you say, disputing it in my head

I commend you for being a free thinker, and I agree with you. I also avoid a lot of modern Kathakars. Each of us should interpret the words of our Guru for ourselves. Too many members of the Sangat appear far too susceptible to brainwashing by the practitioners of Katha. Our people place too much esteem in these characters. Our Kathakars and Gianis should attempt to emulate the priests of Christian denominations like the Church of England, who are well versed in a good many disciplines be they science, theology, literature, history or what have you.

[VeeruS]

Religion turns a beastly man into a saintly man.

Not always the case. I have seen religious people acting like beasts. I am pretty sure you have seen the same.

[Nihal Singh Kanakpuria]

.

WHO IS GREATER, THE BHAGAT WHO ACHIEVES COMPLETE BRAMGIANI, JEEVAN MUKTI (Which I believe to be real, the idea of complete oneness with God) OR SAY NIKOLA TESLA, ISAAC NEWTON, ANDREW WILES. I say the latters works, legacy is greater, it is beyond Man, it is a true Godhood. ”

You are comparing apples with toasters.. A Bhagat who becomes brahmgyani but doesn't share with others or is unable to be a light to anyone is of no use to the community (maybe at complete peace with himself though) and so is a scientist or inventor who invents but doesn't share (even if its commercial sharing).

Would you hv thought so highly about Telsa if electricity lit only his home ? While we all lived in darkness. What's easy for people working with in physical realms is that their achievements are very easily measurable, which is not the case when dealing with something abstract.

About you not liking the modern kathakars and grinding your teeth, What exactly dont you like ? what they are saying or that you cant find a single kathakar that you are able to agree with ?

Either way this would be the lamest reason i hv heard for not living an Amritdhari life.

Nihal

[anongram101]

Nihal Ji, AS Khalsa Ji,

10 Years ago, I 100% believed in Sikh Supremacy over all things… hence being Amritdari made complete sense? Why wouldn’t I take Amrit? I had the same zealous faith, that born again Christians have, or orthodox Muslims have. I still believe, but have lost the Zeal to live as an Amritdari, would much rather be a cut-kesh Sikh again, believing in God and Sikhi…. BUT…due to your comments…..I have reconsidered cutting my kesh, and have begun a Sehaj Paath, both in English & Gurmukhi. I will not take any decision before it’s complete. BTW I watched Four Sahibzaada the other day, and will also reimmerse myself in Sikh History while I am doing the Sehaj Paath. A large part of me does want to come to terms, to continue living as an Amritdari…

Nihal Ji,

People who work in the theoretical sciences and mathematics, truly deal in the abstract. Their work in various fields, is subject to peer review, to ensure rigour, soundness and is open to challenge. I think it’s fair to compare, say a Bramgiani to Andrew Wiles, it’s not a case of apples to toasters. Andrew Wiles, armed with nothing more than a pencil and a piece of paper, in secret, sitting in his attic, after 10 years of effort solved a piece of mathematics, that pushed the frontiers of Human understanding, albeit only a couple of hundred people in the world could come close to understanding Andrew’s proof, and few dozen could authoritatively judge its correctness. How different is the Discipline of Andrew Wiles, and other Elite Mathematicians who take on abstract Mathematical challenges, knowing many years of disciplined single minded effort is required, to a Bhagat who does bhagati to become a Brahmgiani. Hence I make the comparison.
Furthermore, Kathakars will often denigrate the fruits of the High Culture of the West, to make their religious argument, reduce it to a footnote. It would be better if Kathakars did not stray into this area. It’s as irritating as when Muslims claim their scripture predicted this scientific theory, or had this fact, as do Hindus with their scriptures. It’s very easy to retroactively claim the Quran or Vedas included this scientific fact, or this theory, citing some obscure passage up against string theory, relativity, cosmic expansion etc…. But you cannot go away, study your scripture, and as a result find a single Natural Law that the Scientific Method & Empiricism is yet to discover or will discover.

So Nihal Ji, I wanted to cut kesh, because I do not believe in any Religion. But I still believe in spirituality and the very real phenomena of ‘Eastern Enlightenment’/Nirvana/Jeevann Mukti/Oneness with God….. and I do have an undying love of Sikh Gurus, Sikhs, & Sikhi in my heart. Hence I picture myself as a cut kesh sikh, bowing to the SGGS Ji, but living without the trappings of being an Amritdari. I just thank god, the penalty is being a PATIT and you only consider my reasons as lame, I do not risk being executed like in traditional Islam, for leaving the faith, or as it has been in Christianity, before the Western Enlightenment, with the Spanish Inquisition torturing the heretics like me.