Lost faith and anger :(

[Dr.Kaur]

Dear Bundha
I always did selfless prayers, people used to tell me that it is OK to ask and I used to say that I believe in Him and know he will grant me with what is best for me. I am thankful to God for everything he has granted me, everything. But these two things that would have meant that I do not desire anything anymore and I am content but I guess I will never be content now. i feel like a failure and what amazes me that God let me fail. I loved him with all my heart and tried to follow every teaching of Sikhi. I know I have 2 vikaars for sure but I was working on it, anger is my enemy and hankaar (ego) is a big boy too.
I am angry because I felt like God punished me where as the people who do not obey what he say get a better treatment from Him. and my trust is hurt, i had such a trust in him that he knows what I want and I feel like I am let down.
i still pray because I know in the end only that will work but the feeling of being a failure is the worst felling anyone can ever have.
Now I feel like I am complain about Him. But i am his daughter and I can nag all i want, he has to listen to me and give me what I want in the end, i am his princess.

[rusty_sim]

Hi

My sister and her partner are also having trouble becoming pregnant (for a few years now) and I'm sad because she will make such a great mother. My mum has similar thoughts to you ("there's people who don't even want kids but they get pregnant all the time"). So while I don't know how you feel, I can somewhat appreciate the stress it puts on the family.

but my family is totally against it

You seem to care too much what other people think. There is no doubt you have much more life experience than I do but if you live life always thinking about what others will think/say/do, then you are already living in the mortal hell described by the gurus.

I wish you all the happiness, if I could give you mine and take your sadness I would.

[Romesh Kumar]

SSA everyone
I have been suffering from this from a long time, the more I want to suppress this feeling of anger against God, the stronger it becomes.
I pray a lot but even then I fail to achieve the two most important things that I desire. I am always very thankful to God for everything that I have but why can' I have what I most desire and after achieving that, i shall have no more worldly desire.
I just wanted to pass my licensing exam and have a family, but I failed in both. It makes me feel like looser. I am very depressed, super angry. if others can easily have all these why can't I ?
I am thankful that I have a nice husband, nice parents, pets, plants and other that that are important for living, that I do not have to go to bed empty stomach but I really desired my license this year, I failed the exam despite working like a donkey on it. Married for 4yrs and no kids. No treatment works, neither does any prayer.
How do I calm myself and be thankful for what I have and not be mad at God. Why does only that person gets anything , whom God decides to give? Why are others discriminated or given bad luck?

Since we are human beings so there nothing abnormal in having desires and human weaknesses.
It is very easy for any abc or xyz to quote from scriptures and advise others but only the bearer knows where the shoe pinches.Do not get disheartened and keep your efforts and attempts on. I heartily wish you all the best.
During my engineering studies in the decade of 70s I could not score pass marks(40%) in one subject(Maths) out of 12 of two semesters of a year. I had to loose one year because of that. Just imagine a boy of lower midle class Indian family of 70s whose family was counting hrs, days, weeks, months and years for me to pass out and start earning to help myself and them as well.150 to 200 rupees spent in a month on education away from village used to be 'an amount' those days.I was not a weak student but simple and real fact was that question paper was not in line with my preparations. After 5 months I scored 73% marks in same subject without any extra effort !!!! Reason was simple that QP was inline with preparation I had made 5 months ago. There is nothing like religion or spirituality or religious practice or prayers etc in every sphere of human life. It is just about 'trust in God and do the right'. You already trust in Him and 'Right' in this case is to attempt again and again to achieve 'the desired'.
As of having kids, you are a Doctor dear. This is combination of medical, physical and private life. Have you ever read or heard that any avtar,messenger,prophet, guru had had children by miracles or prayers ? they had done the same what people diameterically oppsed to them used to do !!!! So, please go for medical checks and necessary cures of yourself and that of your husband. You will definitely have the desired results. Again and from depth of my heart, I wish you all the best. Plans do not fail, we use to fail to plan.Thanks.

[AS Khalsa]

Dear AS Khalsa
I and my husband do want to adopt but my family is totally against it. There was lots of yelling, finger pointing and blame game when we tried to bring up the topic. And then the topic that get that surgery done, do that done etc. Then came the blaming that we do not pray hard enough, that made me really angry.
Even my friends at work , my own age were so against it and said you don't know what you are getting! Like I am buying a pet or a vegetable. That scared me out too because of foetal alcohol spectrum disorder, mental disorders that run in families and most importantly attachment issues that older kids have. For a new born wait period is 2-3years, I am willing to do that but I know my and my husband,s family and I do not want my kid to get his feelings hurt at their hands.

Rusty sim Ji is right sister. Ask yourself, does the fear of my family's criticism outweigh my longing for a loving family?

If the answer to the question is yes, then you may well go the rest of your life without children, but your family will be appeased and continue to suggest obscure surgery which might never work.

If the answer to the question is no, you might just get that opportunity at having the family which your heart longs for, but your relationship with your family will be damaged, for a while, or perhaps even longer.

I wouldn't do either of those until I was sure that I had done all I possibly could to persuade them. If you have done all you possibly can, then you have a choice to make Bhainji.

You're in my thoughts and my heart sister, I hope whatever choice you make that you find happiness , truly I do.

[Bundha]

Dear Bundha
I always did selfless prayers, people used to tell me that it is OK to ask and I used to say that I believe in Him and know he will grant me with what is best for me. I am thankful to God for everything he has granted me, everything. But these two things that would have meant that I do not desire anything anymore and I am content but I guess I will never be content now. i feel like a failure and what amazes me that God let me fail. I loved him with all my heart and tried to follow every teaching of Sikhi. I know I have 2 vikaars for sure but I was working on it, anger is my enemy and hankaar (ego) is a big boy too.
I am angry because I felt like God punished me where as the people who do not obey what he say get a better treatment from Him. and my trust is hurt, i had such a trust in him that he knows what I want and I feel like I am let down.
i still pray because I know in the end only that will work but the feeling of being a failure is the worst felling anyone can ever have.
Now I feel like I am complain about Him. But i am his daughter and I can nag all i want, he has to listen to me and give me what I want in the end, i am his princess.

It is very easy for any abc or xyz to quote from scriptures and advise others but only the bearer knows where the shoe pinches.

I had to walk away from my children, I had to leave my home, I left all my possessions and things I owned. I left with one suitcase and three small cardboard boxes. I lost my job and my elder brother passed away at the same time, so people may quote Gurbani and advise but they may also know how the shoe “pinches.”

Bhenji, these things happened to me because of my karam, but Guru Ji still looked after me. God did not let you fail, He still looks over you. This is not a bargaining thing, just because you followed Sikhi so closely it does not always follow that God will give you your heart’s desire it does not work like that. You say you still do your paath but have lot of anger and hunkaar, then your paath will have no effect on you as Krodh and Hukaar are taking it all from you. When you do paath and you do it hand in hand with Krodh and Hunkaar then they take all the benefit. You need to let go of them. Let them pass. Take off their chains and embrace Guru Ji with your heart. Yes you are His daughter, then pray and love Him like He is your father.

[AS Khalsa]

A small fish lived in the deep sea, “where is this water you all keep talking about” she said “I don’t see it, I don’t feel it, show me the proof?” The older wiser fish said that the water was all around, that you cannot live without it, you cannot breath without it, it is our life. But the little fish would not listen, “I do not believe in this life giving water”. Sure enough one day the little fish became caught in a net and was hauled up on to a fishing boat. As it wriggled and writhed in agony on the deck gasping for water it realised its folly.

Ridiculous analogy. Whether or not these ludicrous fish of yours choose to believe in water or not, the existence of water is clearly demonstrable through the use of scientific equipment or, perhaps more conveniently, our eyes. Our sensory organs. The same cannot be said of God.

I call myself AS Khalsa and have my avatar as Guru Amar Das Ji because I've been on this forum for a long time, I joined when I still had faith in God. Now I've lost that faith, I simply haven't changed my avatar and my username because I see no point in doing so. But to clear up any and all doubts, I am not a Sikh any more, I am an atheist.

Why should God prove Himself to you? Did Bhagat Kabir Ji ask for proof? Did Bhagat Naamdev Ji demand proof? Did Bhagat Ravidas Ji want proof of God? No. They put in the time and effort first. They turned night into day and day into night by simran, by meditating on His name and God revealed Himself to them in all His glory. So why should God give you proof? Put in the time and effort, get up at amritwella do 10 Japji Sahib paaths every day for six months, then tell me there is no God. You have to make the effort, you have to take the first step, you cannot sit on your backside and demand God gives you proof.

I know people who have spent 90 years doing all that nonsense only to have begged for proof of God on their deathbeds. Blind faith is DANGEROUS. What good will getting up at Amritvela and doing 10 Japji Sahib Paaths every day for six months accomplish? Wasn't Guru Nanak Dev against that kind of mechanical recitation and needless ritalism?


Do you believe that electons whizz around a nucleus? Have you seen an electron? Yet you believe people who tell you that there are things called electrons. You have no evidence, only words in books written by men, yet you choose to believe them. You do not question their evidence you do not demand that you want to see an electron. So, when the Gurus tell you there is a God why do you not believe them? Guru Granth Sahib Ji on each 1430 angs praises God, Bhagat Kabir Ji, Bhagat Namdev Ji Bhagat Ravidas Ji all say there is a God yet you do not believe them.


The whole credibility of Kabir, Namdev and Ravidas rests on the premise the God exists. If I don't accept that fundamental premise, then what they have to say is of no consequence to me.

Besides, it just isn't fair or rational for God to hide himself so that he can only be known by faith, then demand that every single human being find him by picking the right religion out of thousands of conflicting and incompatible religions.

We can't see electrons, but they and their activity can be measured, unlike god. Do you believe in electrons?

When the Gurus tell me there is a God why don't I believe them? Are you the kind of person that believes whatever you're told immediately? Nobody does this with anything else but religion. In any other situation it would be considered irrational to go by blind faith. If someone was to ask you to invest in a business venture without giving you the details of this business venture, would you still invest in it? Certainly not, at least I hope not.

So why, if someone tells you there IS a God whom you should invest your very existence towards (but gives you no concrete evidence for this God's existence) do you immediately jump on the bandwagon?


He created each one of us so He understands who we are and what we are, He understands our hopes and fears and aspirations, He is within all of us, He knows everything we do , He is “Ghat gaht kay pat pat ke jaanay” but He is under no obligation to prove His existence to us. If you do not believe in Him then so be it, then carry on in the circle of life and death. As for being an egomaniac, no He is not He just wants our love like a father loves his children.

I don't think its loving at all for a father to demand that his children worship and adore him, by threatening them with the punishment of endless rebirth. A father's love for his children is unconditional. God's love isn't unconditional. There is a condition and its name is DAMNATION. God the loving father is saying, "Love me, or you will burn". That isn't unconditional love. Its blackmail of the highest order.

Your biological father does everything for you, provides for you, cares for you, feeds you, clothes you and loves you unconditionally then how would he feels if you totally ignored him or denied his existence?

That is quite possibly the most inane analogy I have ever heard in my life. Because unlike God, my biological father definitely exists! I can see him. I can touch him. I can hear him. So how could I possibly deny his existence when the evidence is irrefutable? I can't extend the same courtesy to God, for whom there exists no proof.

It is all about evidence

No, it is all about faith.

Faith is choosing to believe in something contrary to all evidence.

You know when I converted to Sikhism I attributed my newfound 'faith' to Gurprasadh. And here I am today. An agnostic veering towards atheism. So much for Gurprasadh. I can't identify it, you can't identify it, nobody can.

Don’t blame God , if God did kirpa upon you and you have veered off the path that is your fault not God’s. You were given a golden opportunity by God but you squandered it , that is your fault not God’s.

Just read whole astpadhi in Sukhmani Sahib Ji about Gurparsadh and you will understand its power.

Even if the child does not become depraved but even if he creates on karam he has to come back, so God gives him a chance if he misuses it then that is his fault not God’s.[/quote]


God never gave me his 'kirpa'. I was a depressed teenager, and the sense of fellowship I derived from becoming a Sikh, I misinterpreted as 'kirpa'. I know that now. You are in no position to tell me, conclusively, that it was kirpa.

[Bundha]

Such pent up anger. The fish tale is a very very simple story but you seem not to have grasped its meaning. It’s from the fish’s perspective not ours. The fish cannot see or feel the water because they are totaly emmersed in it, it’s not from our point of view. . . . Oh brother, never mind. . . . Just be the fish my friend, just be the fish !

[AS Khalsa]

Such pent up anger. The fish tale is a very very simple story but you seem not to have grasped its meaning. It’s from the fish’s perspective not ours. The fish cannot see or feel the water because they are totaly emmersed in it, it’s not from our point of view. . . . Oh brother, never mind. . . . Just be the fish my friend, just be the fish !

I am not angry. There is simply no gentle way for someone to tell you that your whole existence is built around a lie.
But, how exactly would you feel if someone played this card?:

"Your biological father does everything for you, provides for you, cares for you, feeds you, clothes you and loves you unconditionally then how would he feels if you totally ignored him or denied his existence?"

It infuriates me that you can even say something so absurd. Please


Fish cannot feel the water? Of course they can feel it. Water is not like air. It it is a viscous medium. Water resistance can be felt. But let us for the sake of argument replace your rather inane analogy with one which occupies the same niche and is an altogether more reasonable one:

A little man lived on land, and he said "where is this air you all keep talking about, I don't see it, I don't feel it, show me the proof". His old, wise mother said air was all around and that we couldn't live without it. But the little man wouldn't listen. Surely enough, one day, the little boy fell off a cliff into the sea and plummeted to the depths. As he writhed in agony as the pressure decimated his lungs, he gasped for air and realised his folly.

Had you said this I would have taken it more seriously. But my argument still stands - the presence of air is demonstrable. God, for whom in this analogy air is the substitute, CAN NEVER be demonstrated to exist.

Please refute my points.

[Bundha]

I am not angry. There is simply no gentle way for someone to tell you that your whole existence is built around a lie. But, how exactly would you feel if someone played this card?:

"Your biological father does everything for you, provides for you, cares for you, feeds you, clothes you and loves you unconditionally then how would he feels if you totally ignored him or denied his existence?"

It infuriates me that you can even say something so absurd. Please

You are not angry, but infuriated hmmmmm. Why are you infuriated? I know of a number of people who have been raised by their parents and now want to have nothing to do with them. The same parents who fed and clothed and loved them are now non existant to them they cross the road when they see them. Come on mate keep up!

Fish cannot feel the water? Of course they can feel it. Water is not like air. It it is a viscous medium. Water resistance can be felt.

LOL. Actually within your argument water is like air and is also a viscous medium. Air resistance can also be felt. You seem to miss the point totally. Because the fish were born in water, live in water, spend their whole lives in water they do not notice it, just as we are born in air , live in air and spend our whole lives in air we do not notice it.

But let us for the sake of argument replace your rather inane analogy with one which occupies the same niche and is an altogether more reasonable one:

A little man lived on land, and he said "where is this air you all keep talking about, I don't see it, I don't feel it, show me the proof". His old, wise mother said air was all around and that we couldn't live without it. But the little man wouldn't listen. Surely enough, one day, the little boy fell off a cliff into the sea and plummeted to the depths. As he writhed in agony as the pressure decimated his lungs, he gasped for air and realised his folly.Had you said this I would have taken it more seriously.

Haha, what is the difference??? As I said, . . . . . . . be the fish.

Please refute my points.

You are just going round in circles my friend, albeit infuriatingly, and I have better things to do then argue with someone who cannot or chooses not to understand the simplest.

Ang 473 Pauree:
All call You their own, Lord; one who does not own You, is picked up and thrown away.
Everyone receives the rewards of his own actions; his account is adjusted accordingly.
Since one is not destined to remain in this world anyway, why should he ruin himself in pride?
Do not call anyone bad; read these words, and understand.
Don't argue with fools. ||19||

[AS Khalsa]

I am not angry. There is simply no gentle way for someone to tell you that your whole existence is built around a lie. But, how exactly would you feel if someone played this card?:

"Your biological father does everything for you, provides for you, cares for you, feeds you, clothes you and loves you unconditionally then how would he feels if you totally ignored him or denied his existence?"

It infuriates me that you can even say something so absurd. Please

You are not angry, but infuriated hmmmmm. Why are you infuriated? I know of a number of people who have been raised by their parents and now want to have nothing to do with them. The same parents who fed and clothed and loved them are now non existant to them they cross the road when they see them. Come on mate keep up!


At least these people who want nothing to do with their parents can be sure that their parents exist. Please retort that.

OK. I lied. Your arguments are inane. They infuriate me.

Fish cannot feel the water? Of course they can feel it. Water is not like air. It it is a viscous medium. Water resistance can be felt.

LOL. Actually within your argument water is like air and is also a viscous medium. Air resistance can also be felt. You seem to miss the point totally. Because the fish were born in water, live in water, spend their whole lives in water they do not notice it, just as we are born in air , live in air and spend our whole lives in air we do not notice it.

And you fail to understand that my argument still stands. I don't care if it is water or if it is air. That isn't strictly relevant, I shouldn't have started talking about resistance. You're talking as if the matter of resistance is central to my argument. My main point concerning the ridiculous original analogy that you posted is that the existence of the life giving water, or the life giving air, whether we believe it is there or not, can be VERIFIED. The existence of your life giving God cannot. Please focus on this instead of the physics of the whole thing. No more rhetoric and empty analogies.

But let us for the sake of argument replace your rather inane analogy with one which occupies the same niche and is an altogether more reasonable one:

A little man lived on land, and he said "where is this air you all keep talking about, I don't see it, I don't feel it, show me the proof". His old, wise mother said air was all around and that we couldn't live without it. But the little man wouldn't listen. Surely enough, one day, the little boy fell off a cliff into the sea and plummeted to the depths. As he writhed in agony as the pressure decimated his lungs, he gasped for air and realised his folly.Had you said this I would have taken it more seriously.

Haha, what is the difference??? As I said, . . . . . . . be the fish.

I apologize. There is no difference. But my point still stands, air can be proven to exist, whether we believe it or not. God cannot.

Please refute my points.

You are just going round in circles my friend, albeit infuriatingly, and I have better things to do then argue with someone who cannot or chooses not to understand the simplest.

Ang 473 Pauree:
All call You their own, Lord; one who does not own You, is picked up and thrown away.
Everyone receives the rewards of his own actions; his account is adjusted accordingly.
Since one is not destined to remain in this world anyway, why should he ruin himself in pride?
Do not call anyone bad; read these words, and understand.
Don't argue with fools. ||19||

Typical copout by people of faith, "lalala I can't hear you, my Guru tells me not to argue with fools, fools being anyone who disagrees with me". Your Guru's commandment is a slap in the face of discourse and debate.

I am a rational person. I believe in something, or disbelieve something on the basis of evidence or lack of evidence respectively. You have given me none. All you have is empty rhetoric and empty analogies.

Moderator Note: Due to the caliber of this exchange, this topic will be closed at 11 pm EST on 7/25/13. Please post your final thoughts before that. Thanks.