Is tolerance of intolerance really tolerance, or is it ...

[ImperfectSikh]

Maybe the family doesn't like him talking about Sikhi, so fine don't talk about it.

AM

Sat Sri Akaal AM,

Maybe you should explain how that is wise. You are simply giving the Christian part (which due to the dubious conversion of his daughter, is all of that family, effectively ending any prospect of there being any real Sikh influence on his grandkids) of the family an unquestioned veto over what part of non-Christian doctrine they would be exposed to or not.

In other words, there is no halfway meeting, and no self-respect. I fail to see how grandkids telling their granddad that he is headed to hell amounts to any kind of love or respect for him.

[Theodorus]

ImperfectSikh ji,

I fail to see how grandkids telling their granddad that he is headed to hell amounts to any kind of love or respect for him.

You can also look at it from a different perspective. The fact that grandkids say this shows that they at least care about their granddad. The only thing granddad has to do (ok, I agree that can be difficult) is to convince the grandkids by his attitude, way of living, consideration, understanding, (and yes) tolerance etc. that he is actually is a good man and will go to 'heaven' whatever. As the grandkids grow up and learn to think / make up their opinions themselves they will realise how things really are. Respect for him will only grow.......and interest in Sikhism will perhaps follow.

[ImperfectSikh]

ImperfectSikh ji,

I fail to see how grandkids telling their granddad that he is headed to hell amounts to any kind of love or respect for him.

You can also look at it from a different perspective. The fact that grandkids say this shows that they at least care about their granddad. The only thing granddad has to do (ok, I agree that can be difficult) is to convince the grandkids by his attitude, way of living, consideration, understanding, (and yes) tolerance etc. that he is actually is a good man and will go to 'heaven' whatever. As the grandkids grow up and learn to think / make up their opinions themselves they will realise how things really are. Respect for him will only grow.......and interest in Sikhism will perhaps follow.

Sat Sri Akaal Theodorus,

While one may wish that the ideal state of affairs you describe may come to pass, the reality of the situation is such that that would be extremely unlikely outcome. As it stands, this good man's interactions with his granddaughters are barely tolerated, and as I mentioned earlier, fairly heavily censored.

The faith that his grandkids may follow is immaterial beyond the otherwise reasonable expectation that it be rooted in reciprocal tolerance of Sikhi (and other ways of life). Given the way they are being raised, that is not a reasonable expectation however.

Reality, as they say, is reality, and I think that our interactions with other faiths should be based, especially when it comes to such close relationships, on the inseparable principles of tolerance and reciprocity. I mean - one would not tolerate a friend who constantly denigrated one's religion (in spite of being accepting of his choices), so why would one tolerate a life partner / in-laws who did the same ?

[AM]

Ok maybe I need to elaborate a little here. I can get why I might have been misunderstood.

My basic premise about grandparents is to love and hug their grandchildren, a lot and often. :) Parents are there to do the hard work of raising and guiding and discipline etc.

So maybe yes some grandparents do take on the added role of teaching the grandchildren about various things and sometimes even guiding them spiritually. But it is usually always in extension to whatever the parents have instilled in the first instance.

So in this case his daughter is clearly taking a different path and her children don't seem harmed by it. If anything they seem concerned and curious too about their granddad.
So when I say he should not talk about it I mean he should maybe keep his comments to a minimum or maybe instead of focusing on the Sikhi he could ask them to talk more about their faith, as they are clearly happy within it. Support his garndchildren in their life and choices, don't make it about himself. Maybe when they do ask questions about him in particular like this one the immediate response should be not to look for the negative but the positive. These kids care for their grandfather. They may have learnt the lesson of 'heaven & hell' at sunday school (I am only guessing here) and have logically come to the realization that their beloved granddad might miss out. It would not be any different to if granddad missed out on a piece of cake :) They want to be sure he is going to be ok and have his share of the good stuff too.

The other thing to keep in mind about his daughter is that she is likely trying to minimize the exposure to Sikhi for her own reasons. As a mother, unlike me, she might be afraid of her children being 'confused' as she sees no other way to be. She has to live in that family too and if her husband is not open to exposing her children to another side of life then really its her marriage and their decision as a couple. How is that wrong? It would be much like some parents not wanting their kids to see horror movies until a certain age or some parents not wanting kids to date. (smaller examples but along the same vein)

She is completely valid in her own thoughts and unless she is verbally maligning the faith her views should be respected for what they are. She knows Sikhi and has made the decision to move in another direction. So maybe Sikhi wasn't quite for her. Maybe her new faith brings her more peace. Is that any different to Sikh parents wanting to share their faith with their child.

I hope I made some sense in explaining my statement. Too often we see things with doubt and suspicion when really we just need to see it with love and understanding. Not all of us are at the same place in life and not all our experiences are the same. Sure to us her decision might seem odd but to her, its allowing her to lead her life the way she and her husband want to. No different than anyone of us would expect to be able to do.

Regards,
AM

[Theodorus]

AM ji,

Right. This is precesely what I ment to say too.

[ImperfectSikh]

Ok maybe I need to elaborate a little here. I can get why I might have been misunderstood.

My basic premise about grandparents is to love and hug their grandchildren, a lot and often. :) Parents are there to do the hard work of raising and guiding and discipline etc.

So maybe yes some grandparents do take on the added role of teaching the grandchildren about various things and sometimes even guiding them spiritually. But it is usually always in extension to whatever the parents have instilled in the first instance.

So in this case his daughter is clearly taking a different path and her children don't seem harmed by it. If anything they seem concerned and curious too about their granddad.
So when I say he should not talk about it I mean he should maybe keep his comments to a minimum or maybe instead of focusing on the Sikhi he could ask them to talk more about their faith, as they are clearly happy within it. Support his garndchildren in their life and choices, don't make it about himself. Maybe when they do ask questions about him in particular like this one the immediate response should be not to look for the negative but the positive. These kids care for their grandfather. They may have learnt the lesson of 'heaven & hell' at sunday school (I am only guessing here) and have logically come to the realization that their beloved granddad might miss out. It would not be any different to if granddad missed out on a piece of cake :) They want to be sure he is going to be ok and have his share of the good stuff too.

The other thing to keep in mind about his daughter is that she is likely trying to minimize the exposure to Sikhi for her own reasons. As a mother, unlike me, she might be afraid of her children being 'confused' as she sees no other way to be. She has to live in that family too and if her husband is not open to exposing her children to another side of life then really its her marriage and their decision as a couple. How is that wrong? It would be much like some parents not wanting their kids to see horror movies until a certain age or some parents not wanting kids to date. (smaller examples but along the same vein)

She is completely valid in her own thoughts and unless she is verbally maligning the faith her views should be respected for what they are. She knows Sikhi and has made the decision to move in another direction. So maybe Sikhi wasn't quite for her. Maybe her new faith brings her more peace. Is that any different to Sikh parents wanting to share their faith with their child.

I hope I made some sense in explaining my statement. Too often we see things with doubt and suspicion when really we just need to see it with love and understanding. Not all of us are at the same place in life and not all our experiences are the same. Sure to us her decision might seem odd but to her, its allowing her to lead her life the way she and her husband want to. No different than anyone of us would expect to be able to do.

Regards,
AM

Sat Sri Akaal AM,

I do not question their personal religious choices (even though there is significant evidence that her conversion was not based for any spiritual reasons).

I merely question the sense in continuing to interact with a branch of a family that is being clearly raised to despise you, no matter how innocent and well-meaning the grandkids may be at this time. Tolerance requires reciprocity, otherwise it is merely weak submission.

[Lee Douglas]

ImperfectSikh ji,

First off allow me to applogise in advance at what you may view as some harsh words from me. The again having said that, from your tone, and choice of words, your grammar and writting stlye. but perhaps most of all from your choice of login name, I can see that you appear to be an intelegent, thoughtfull chap, so perhaps what I will say, well you already know.

Your post appears to be set in ego my friend, you ask in effect 'is tolerance worth it, if it cause our youth to leave our faith?'

To my mind it shows a love of the path, rather than a love of where the path leads.
Now of course you can dissagree with me, but isn't Sikhi a Dharma? A path to be trod, a way to be lived, a route to the only absolute truth?

Does it then matter that others tread other paths, even when those others are our own children?

I would have to say not. All paths lead to God, some are quicker, some are slower, some are harder, but God in Gods love and wisdom gave humanity multiple paths. Indeed how could God not have done so, after populating the world with a wounderous verity of people? It does makes a certian logical sense does it not, many differant 'mindsets' many paths to God?

Families, will fall out from time to time, and some may never recover, this again though is all the illusion of maya. The only thing that is of 'worth' ultimalty, is that you find and then follow your path, be selfish in your own quest for God and leave others to make their own choices.

Heh that is what I think anyway.

[ImperfectSikh]

Your post appears to be set in ego my friend, you ask in effect 'is tolerance worth it, if it cause our youth to leave our faith?'

To my mind it shows a love of the path, rather than a love of where the path leads.
Now of course you can dissagree with me, but isn't Sikhi a Dharma? A path to be trod, a way to be lived, a route to the only absolute truth?

Sat Sri Akaal Lee,

I think you have misunderstood me.

I do not question tolerance. I question its genuineness when it is unaccompanied with self-respect.

[Punjabi G]

Does it then matter that others tread other paths, even when those others are our own children?
All paths lead to God, some are quicker, some are slower, some are harder, but God in Gods love and wisdom gave humanity multiple paths.

Lee Ji,

I believe, that's not what the problem is in this case or many other similar instances. If everyone believed that different paths lead to same God and respected other views, this world will be a much better place. The problem is that various Christian and Islamic groups/churches are inherently divisive. The hatred and propaganda spread against non-believers or infidels in these places is real and dangerous. Would you allow or encourage your children to join such congregations? Are they really spreading love and tolerance for God? Half the wars being fought around the world today are because of these hate mongers, who believe that it's their way or highway! I think you live in UK, so can't comment on things there but in US, there are quite a few churches which give healthy dose of such hate to their followers every Sunday.

Bay Area, CA is considered one of the most liberal part of US but even here you can find some churches which tell OTHERS that their salvation is only in Jesus Christ, and that outside of Him is destruction. In El Sobrante Gurudwara, Sikhs hold a peach/interfaith march every year to commemorate Guru Arjan Sahib's martyrdom day. Other communities are invited as well. Every year, a local church on the way will come out and pass on fliers to Sikhs and others essentially telling them that Gurbani and Sikhi is fake and they should accept Jesus Christ to be saved! Unbelievable but true!

It's about tolerance ad respect from these hate mongers which is needed and which you will never get because it's enshrined in their beliefs. I will recommend watching documentary called Jesus Camp to see what really goes on in such places!

[Lee Douglas]

Your post appears to be set in ego my friend, you ask in effect 'is tolerance worth it, if it cause our youth to leave our faith?'

To my mind it shows a love of the path, rather than a love of where the path leads.
Now of course you can dissagree with me, but isn't Sikhi a Dharma? A path to be trod, a way to be lived, a route to the only absolute truth?

Sat Sri Akaal Lee,

I think you have misunderstood me.

I do not question tolerance. I question its genuineness when it is unaccompanied with self-respect.

ImperfectSikh ji,

Heh sorry sir no missunderstanding here. Again your words tell me that what you are worried about is reciprication.

To that I must ask why?

There are many people in the world, and God has created many 'mindsets' in Gods many people. It stands to reason that we will not all think alike, nor act alike. What does it matter that some do not return your kindness or tolerance shown to them? Yes yes of course the world would be a much nicer place if they did, but the FACT is they do not.

Should how you are treated when you treat somebody with respect, honor understanding, and dare I say it tolerence, change if such is not returned to you?

Sikhi promtes the idea of Sad Sangat. Our guru's undertood that being in the company of 'like minded' does good for the soul, whilst the company of those who do not think like Sikhs will probaly hasten ones sinking into the depths of maya.

We are all free, God has granted us all free will to say and do what we wish. Then why should we get upset when somebody uses this gift from God to do exaclty that, and by doing so shows themselves to be unSikh. What does it matter what others do, why get upset about the choices of others?

Self respect? What is that, if not a tool of ego? There is no self, all is God, to belive otherwise is simply to emerse oneself in this world of maya.