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Re: Sikhism Today! - will we survive??? (UNMODERATED)

Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:54 am
by keshgarh
I have also been reading the posts of this very active member Himmat Singh ji and on many occasions felt offended as to why does he have to cast insinuations all over the well practicing sikhs.
Why all quotations his posts are at tangent, logic is flawed and objective seems to be anti-established sikh norms.

So deepharn ji is correct and fully justified in his observation .

I joined this forum to learn more from wise practicing sikhs not to hear blasphemy from some person who in his own words calls himself "Patit". and keeps waiting for any opportunity to aim new arrows from his bow at the practising sikhs.
This is very wrong and moderators must put an end to it or real and simple practicing sikhs would simply drift away from this site feeling helpless.

@Suji Singh ji - Would you like to be taught tenets of the sikh faith from someone who calls himself Patit?

My humble prayer to the moderators to seriously consider the point given by Deepharn ji and because they will not be able to cull out objectionable material from the 885 posts . It is better to delete all of them.

Re: Sikhism Today! - will we survive??? (UNMODERATED)

Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:13 pm
by 5ikh
suji singh wrote:Deepharn Ji wrote:
This is in reference to the banning of Himmat Singh. This judgement is unfair becuse it is too little and the offensive material should be expunged from the website. Once the ban is over, he will again start writing but our new readers and young people would naver know he was banned for these offensive writings
So, you want to ban all opinions that do not agree with yours and you want to expunge materials that you deem offensive.
Interpretation of any holy book is subjective, you seem to be implying it is your way or highway.

When dissenting opinions are not honored/allowed, people stagnate and perish!
Freedom of speech has a limit. You cannot go around making accusations that are not true about politicians or any other figures. If you do expect yourself in court with a big lawsuit on your hands. People like Himmat 'Singh' abuse that power here because they know no one is going to take them to court and make sure they pay up all their life savings. Sikhi is not up for opinions and needs to be understood as Guru Sahib taught it. The foundation of Sikhi is solid as steel and is factual. You cannot walk in a Supreme court room and say the judge is just giving out opinions. The decision is final. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is above a judge, yet you consider someone can question Guru Sahib ultimate authority on a Sikhi site. It is an established fact that Guru is needed to reach God and is not an opinion. It is a fact that 5 kakkar is the identity of a Sikh. It is a fact the 5 kakkar are not useless rituals. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji's teaching are not subjective, because we had from Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji to Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji teach us the Shabad Guru. We have Bhai Gurdas ji's Vars.

People who slander Guru Sahib and attack Sikhi with the intent to slander, perish from this forum then a good thing just happened on that day. These people are hell bent over misguiding Sikhs and will not contribute to a constructive discussion. They and everyone else are better off with them not on this public forum.

The way we can get rid of this problem of people abusing their freedom of speech is by reporting all the post that violate the guidelines of Sikhnet forum. Don't leave it up to the next person, do it yourself and make sure you name which section is being violated, with what the person said and then give a reason. Also it would be a good idea of private messaging of post that are not appropriate here so other proactive members can report the post aswell. Otherwise these individuals will keep coming back. Further, Mod's or Admins or whoever has the authority should note down the ip address of those that have been banned. These same people will come back with different names and keep on slandering Guru Sahib. Lastly those post that do not meet the guidelines should be deleted and then kept in a back up file, if they are needed for further reasons. Putting a mod note at the end of the post helps in a way, but it does not get the slander off the site, which is really important part of running and maintaining a Sikhi forum. A person does not want to read a post with slander toward Guru Sahib. That get's a person really pissed off and causes further problems.

Re: Sikhism Today! - will we survive??? (UNMODERATED)

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:26 pm
by Moderator 2
Sikhi consists of absolute beliefs. These beliefs bridge the gap between our ignorance and what we cannot comprehend. The purpose of discussions is to rectify our doubts in an open discussion.

Some people forget that this is a Sikh discussion forum.

Himmat Singh is not the only one with doubts. Deleting messages or sweeping people’s doubts under the rug would be counterproductive. But there can be no end to stubborn questioning and display of doubts. The guidelines were developed to prevent such mischief.

Kindly review the guideline #5 for details. Cleverly inserted, cloaked attacks are difficult to remove. We enter a note under a questionable message, instead of rejecting it privately because such attacks should be disarmed through proper discussion, for posterity.

The participants should report the violations to us. When reporting, please be sure to quote the objectionable statement(s). We will then insert a note or delete that material, if appropriate.

5ikh wrote: The way we can get rid of this problem of people abusing their freedom of speech is by reporting all the post that violate the guidelines of Sikhnet forum. Don't leave it up to the next person, do it yourself and make sure you name which section is being violated, with what the person said and then give a reason.

Someone banned permanently is banned by the IP address. If they try to post with a different IP or with a new name, we ban all those IP addresses. If you suspect such activity, please report it to us.

The moderation process is not open to discussion. Please do send us your objections privately. Thanks for your suggestions, your participation and your patience.

The Sikhnet Discussion Moderators

Kindly do not send us (The Sikhnet Discussion Moderators) complaints regarding messages or comments on other web pages of Sikhnet. We do not moderate or control the Sikhnet. Send those complaints to Sikhnet.

Re: Sikhism Today! - will we survive??? (UNMODERATED)

Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:55 pm
by himmat_singh
Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

It was disappointing, but not surprising, to read a few personal points being aired in the last week, whilst there was a lack of any response to any of the issues raised in my previous post.

The particular sentence that a member, or members, found offence to included like reference to several other religious scriptures. Each is meritable, and followed by the followers who have faith in the various scriptures.
Moderator wrote:"Himmat attacks the Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji by saying it is not the Ultimate authority"
The sentence I wrote was immediately followed by the sentence :
"However, it is the Lord who leads any particular individual, or group of individuals, to follow one route or another, or makes up yet another."

Maybe someone will explain just how the two sentences when read together, are an attack on SGGS ji, or are offensive.

If somebody wishes to ignore the ulimate authority of the One Lord, and see it as offensive to say He sets the path, then please explain how such a stand fits in with Guru Nanak's line in Japji Sahib , which says He sets the path.
hukmee hukam chalaa-ay raahu.
The Commander, by His Command, leads us to walk on the Path.
(Japji Sahib)

I can't say enough times overr my "eight hundred odd posts" that I only follow SGGS ji and One God, but when one wishes to read posts with closed minds, then one is likely to miss such open declarations, which clearly sets out recognition of authority of SGGS ji for me. Maybe I need to open posts with such a statement.

Moderator 2 wrote:Himmat Singh is not the only one with doubts
A bit of a presumption. Thanks, but I have very few doubts at all. SGGS ji easily clears any doubts that might arise. SGGS ji provide a very clear path. Thats the beauty of SGGS ji.

Sat Sri Akal

Re: Sikhism Today! - will we survive??? (UNMODERATED)

Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:38 am
by sikh_13
I just came around to have a look and was kindda surprised to see this thread still going strong since may last long. But the contents shocked me - the internal fighting - picking and all the features that has brought down this religion.

Dear friends - let us discuss how will sikhism survive---
let us talk why a turban (with hair) need or need not be borne...
let us talk if ludhiana having three bihari corporators is ok or is it a sign of changing demography...
let us discuss how to answer your six year daughter asking you to cut your hair....
let us discuss if it is ok to sit on chairs and have 'langar'....
let us discuss if it is ok to carry gurdwara snacks home and be had with drinks.....
let us discuss if we understand our religion...
let us discuss if going for 'shani daan' or following a hindu practice is ok with our religion....
let us discuss if 'this' religion has strength to 'hold' purists.... or is it just a vaccum to be 'filled' by half sikhs and businessmen.....


please - i started this thread to find answers to some questions ...... (a lot of those continue to seek answers....)

Re: Sikhism Today! - will we survive??? (UNMODERATED)

Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:27 am
by Kuldip S. Virdi
Sikh_13 Jee,

Many of your present question will need to be defined in the context of Sikhism in Punjab.

If demography of Ludhiana is changed and the new immigrants ther have political aspirations, three is too small a number of people form Indian Eastern (Bihar) states to become councillors. If person of Indian and Sikh descendence in Canada can become provincial Prime Minster or Federal Minister, what is wrong with Biharis becoming councillors in Ludhiana. With increasing immigration of Sikh youth to Australia, Canada, Europe and USA eventually you may be looking at a Punjab where very few Sikhs may be left to have political momentum to elect a Sikh legislator or coporator to becom a CM or Mayor.

Sikhism as known today and defined by the recognized body of Sikhs since 1925 requires Sikhs to have uncut hair and follow rehat maryada. The father of six year who cuts his hair will have to state that he is in default as far the sikhism is concerned for his own reasons.

The early Sikhs who went to California in the beginning of the last century bought an old Church building and converted it into a Gurudwara. They continued to use the pew and seats there for seating in that Gurudwara and had the SGGS on a raied platform that did not make them lesser sikhs but I do understand that most of the Gurudwaras in California and other States in US and Canada presently follow the old Indian tradition of sitting on the floor both for the service and langar with some exception, where some choices are practised for practical reasons. Of course, ther has been a confrontation in at least one gurudwara in Canda about the seating for langar, that also does not make them lesser Sikhs.

I have myself seen some people carrying langar home for the family member who could not be present as prasad of the Guru but I did not know that some one would be using langar chapati, dal or subzi as accompniment for the drinks.So, I will not comment on this any more and see its relevance to sikhism.

In my opinion most of the people on this board are making attempta to understnad their religions that is why they are there.

Sikhism has no place for poojas at the burial places, prayer to planets including shaani, pind daan, sharadds but then environmental influence may be a local phenomena and most of such practioners still need to be informed about what Sikhi means, requires and what it offers. They may be only nominal Sikhs but then a religion does not survive because of such people. Zorashtrian (Parsi) religion probably the oldest known relgion in the world has not survived because some people no longer follow its requirements and practices but because there are a few adherents who follow it in its pristine purity and wish to maintain as they consider has been handed down to them.

Sikhism in its present form is bound to survive. There will be always some purist, others may be slightly less relaxed but then they would know that they may be a bit laxed in observance of the sikh rehat and as long as they are aware of the shortcoming themselves may be they will strive to come back to its original form and contribute towards its survival. I am at leat optimistic and the fact that those who are away from Punjab are more likely to be stricter adherents of the Sikhi's requirements and will contribut to its survival.

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa, Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh,

Kuldip Singh

Re: Sikhism Today! - will we survive??? (UNMODERATED)

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:08 pm
by Romesh Kumar
There is no reason for Sikhism to not to survive.

Sikhism has survived, when;
There was no rule of law on part of rulers and regime.

Rulers themselves wanted and tried to do ethnic cleansing.

There were no UNO nor constitutions nor international or national obligations and accountabilities.

There was no rule of law but might is right and that might was in the hands of opponents/rulers.

People in other parts of world and even in other parts of India did not know about Sikhism.

Communication facilities, systems and gadgets did not exist.

To cut it short, question about survival of Sikhism is unrealistic. Yes, if some one/s have a particular or uncommon view/shape/system/style/kind/type/definition/form of Sikhism then they use to and can think in their own way.

Re: Sikhism Today! - will we survive??? (UNMODERATED)

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:15 pm
by kjsinghhyd
Sikhism as known today and defined by the recognized body of Sikhs since 1925 requires Sikhs to have uncut hair and follow rehat maryada..

Now that is a statement which can cause confusions! Sikhs were required to keep their hair uncut since the time of Gurus. And Guru Gobind Singh said that those who wish to keep Singh and Kaur as their last names, will have to keep their hair uncut.

The question is not will Sikhism survive?

The questions for each of us is that will the Sikhi in us survive when our bodies perish? Will we leave this world as a Sikh? Or enter the cycle of reincarnation? Thinking can the practices of Sikhi survive is a waste exercise, for those have the stamp of Guru and are Aad Sach, Jugaad Sach. The question is will we merge with them by practicing and will we be Immortal with them?

Re: Sikhism Today! - will we survive??? (UNMODERATED)

Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:41 am
by Kuldip S. Virdi
kjsinghyd jee,

The topic is Sikhism Today-will we survive. My response is based on the understanding of the question i.e.Will the Sikhism as extant today will survive over the time. I have understood that it is concerned with the definition and requirements of Sikhism as it exists today.

We have several people who tend to define Sikhi of Guru Nanak as one and Sikhi of the Dasam Pita as different and use arguments which are used to have a lot of leeway in the form and requirement of the Sikh religion.

By referring to the definition of Sikh as obtained in the Sikh Rehat Maryada of SGPC formed in 1925, I had tried to define base line of the Sikhism as extant today as Sikh Maryada as a document is available for an easy reference. No hidden meaning should be ascribed as none was intended and certainly not a confusion or mischief but if you did understand it as such my apologies.

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa, Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh,

Kuldip Singh

Re: Sikhism Today! - will we survive??? (UNMODERATED)

Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:02 pm
by sikh_13
well i am impressed with the escapist answers about sikhism - i understand that it is too strong a background for us to let it go....
my questions were not to find book answers ... i just asked some basic questions that came to my mind ...
.... though tempted - i am not going to repeat them

well i see it every day - ppl who killed sikhs in 84 today flaunt 'khanda' on their cars
sikhs who go to mandirs wish you by name of bole so nihal....
story goes on ..... only that it is 'a bit senstive'....

my question continues -
'will real sikhism survive'

my question is - why am i today attracted by islam - as a brotherhood - as a religion - WHY???

Why is TRUE sikhism FAILING???