Sikhism Today! - will we survive??? (UNMODERATED)

[sikh_13]

It is exactly the same interest of various fractions of the group that is leading to death of sikhism today - a devout sikh like me is getting disgusted with the behaviour of the sikhs, the materialistic side of the whole thing, totally spineless leadership, degradation of the values - the way they are used.

And then some sunken race announces that sikhs are now turning away from their own religion - nothing wrong - but seems to be true.

Chalo let us see how it works out in this commercial world !!!

[himmat_singh]

Sat Sri Akal

I would like to thank sikh_13 for intitiating this thread, and the moderators for allowing it to progress in the manner it has done so far.

I would also like to thank sikh_13 for bringing it to my own attention through the post of 07 Aug. I have pretty blinkered vision, and tend not to look through topics other than those on page 1 of the discussion, inpiration or Q & A pages.

The contents of the various posts appear to bring to the fore, and allow a quite free airing of the issues that appear over extended periods of time, in the discussion and Q & A sections.

From my personal or egotistical perspective, I am not concerned with the numbers of people that claim allegiance to any religion, including Sikhism. If the methodologies, techniques, rituals or practices purveyed by the founders of a religion, or their successor managers, do not ring true or appeal to me as an individual, then were I to still to follow them, they are unlikely to lead to inner contentment, or union with God, during life.

I sincerely believe many of those that repeatedly observe upon, discuss and occasionally challenge the practices of those who contend that they are the ones who represent and practice "true" Sikhism, face this conflict. They are not happy with what they are sold, and seek an outlet.

I am not aware of any other use of any religion other than that of achieving inner contentment, to allow me to be able to cope with whatever life, or God's Hukam, throws at me. Politicans are there to serve one purpose, and religion is something quite else, for me.

There are of course, the many, probably the majority, who are peacefuly accepting. They buy whatever they are sold whenever they have a need, and move on, till they are in further need. The profusion of the sale of 10 concurrent Akhand Paaths, or rapid recitals, in larger Gurudwaras, with few listening if even allowed the opportunity, is ample evidence. Not quite earnest meditation on the Word. Nevertheless some are placated, and the coffers are filled so they serve a purpose.

Guru Nanak Dev ji wrote:

bhukhi-aa bhukh na utree jay bannaa puree-aa bhaar.
The hunger of the hungry is not appeased, even by piling up loads of
worldly goods

.

Some say, it is related to the basic unsatisfiable craving hunger for goods by an individual, and stop there.

Personally I have thought much about these words, reading it as one line in the context of surrounding lines and Japji Sahib as a whole, and believe Guru Nanak Dev ji had much more on his mind.

I believe it is more to do with an unquenchable thirst for earning God's blessings. Humans make all sorts of attempts to achieve this. They shower material wealth upon what they are lead to believe are God's worldly embodiments. These embodiments include idols, and places of pilgrimage, and in todays Sikhi they include mutations of the same. They include scriptures and gurudwaras.

Guru Nanak Dev ji would have witnessed ritualistic practices, and we can see them today, in different guises. The next line in Japji Sahib can be related to this, but there are far more appropriate lines in SGGS ji:

sahas si-aanpaa lakh hohi ta ik na chalai naal.
Hundreds of thousands of clever tricks, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end.

Todays practices are revised forms of the same idea that God can be won over by a form of dress, bowing down, eating food that has been made holy, going around a scripture a set number of times, polishing an item repeatedly, pouring oil, tying a thread, marrying within a race or caste, visiting a takht, bathing in a holy pool and so on and so forth.

Yet Guru Nanak Dev ji advises in Japji Sahib:

mannai mag na chalai panth.
The faithful do not follow empty religious rituals.

p3

(empty is a key word here, rather than the fact one perfoms rituals)

Guru Amar Das ji advises

kaaN-i-aa saaDhai uraDh tap karai vichahu ha-umai na jaa-ay.
aDhi-aatam karam jay karay naam na kab hee paa-ay.

You may torment your body with extremes of self-discipline, practice
intensive meditation and hang upside-down, but your ego will not be
eliminated from within.
You may perform religious rituals, and still never obtain the Naam, the
Name of the Lord.

P33

Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji provides a real treasure that provides an abundance of collected thoughts and advice upon how to achieve inner contentment. However the ultimate treasure is within the mind.

p2:

mat vich ratan javaahar maanik jay ik gur kee sikh sunee.
Within the mind are gems, jewels and rubies, if you listen to the Guru's
Teachings, even once.

Guru ji makes very clear that the grace of God, His divine pleasure, is received at His discretion. The only things we as mere mortals can do, is to recognise Him, love Him and offer our love to Him, meditiate upon Him, and do good deeds. We can endeavour to make it easier to achieve contentment. We can limit the highs and lows in our minds. We can stay away from things that disturb our minds. These include drugs and intoxicants. If we control our lust, greed and become aware when we are emotinally attached, we do no suffer so much when we are not satisfied or a sad event occurs. We do not become so angry, and our ego that drives us to self-serve, ramps down allowing us to serve others and make sacrifices for others.

Whether these sort of controls and limitations we place upon ourselves will satisfy God is entirely unknown. He is a force that is known only by one who is His equal.

Plenty will say otherwise:

kathnaa kathee na aavai tot. kath kath kathee kotee kot kot.
There is no shortage of those who preach and teach.Millions upon millions offer millions of sermons and stories.

P2

If one's mind cannot settle due to one's concern about how Sikhism today relates to Sikhism of early 1600s then one could also dwell upon these words uttered by Guru Arjan Dev ji:

P498:

goojree mehlaa 5.
mataa masoorat avar si-aanap jan ka-o kachhoo na aa-i-o.
jah jah a-osar aa-ay bani-o hai tahaa tahaa har Dhi-aa-i-o. ||1||

Goojaree, Fifth Mehl:
The humble servant of the Lord has no plans, politics or other clever tricks.
Whenever the occasion arises, there, he meditates on the Lord. ||1||

Today, we have the choice and many take it, to decide whether to engage in the plays and politics of Gurudwaras, to engage in empty ritual worship and attempts to buy the grace of God, or to follow the advice offered in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, or other worthy scriptures.

The advice in SGGS ji clashes with human/animal instincts to further one's own material interests. To further ones material interests, one has to remain astute and cunning enough to favour oneself and direct successors.
This is not a sacrifice to God, which requires one to give ones head to Him to do as He pleases.

Many sikhs are caught in this dilemma, and worry about the future of Sikhism, ie their successors' fate, yet the fate of all is in the hands of God.


P757, Guru Ram Das ji wrote:

jay lok salaahay taa tayree upmaa jay nindai ta chhod na jaa-ee. ||9||
If people praise me, the praise is Yours. Even if they slander me, I will not
leave You. ||9||
jay tuDh val rahai taa ko-ee kihu aakha-o tuDh visri-ai mar jaa-ee. ||10||
If You are on my side, then anyone can say anything. But if I were to forget
You, then I would die. ||10||
vaar vaar jaa-ee gur oopar pai pairee sant manaa-ee. ||11||
I am a sacrifice, a sacrifice to my Guru; falling at His Feet, I surrender to
the Saintly Guru. ||11||
naanak vichaaraa bha-i-aa divaanaa har ta-o darsan kai taa-ee. ||12||
Poor Nanak has gone insane, longing for the Blessed Vision of the Lord's
Darshan. ||12||
jhakharh jhaagee meehu varsai bhee gur daykhan jaa-ee. ||13||
Even in violent storms and torrential rain, I go out to catch a glimpse of my
Guru. ||13||
samund saagar hovai baho khaaraa gursikh langh gur peh jaa-ee. ||14||
Even though the oceans and the salty seas are very vast, the GurSikh will
cross over it to get to his Guru. ||14||
ji-o paraanee jal bin hai martaa ti-o sikh gur bin mar jaa-ee. ||15||
Just as the mortal dies without water, so does the Sikh die without the
Guru. ||15||

This is the gamble of life that one plays. One can make a choice and the choice is everybody's to make, when people are awakened to the treasures within the mind by the advice of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. An empty recital is unlikely to turn one into a Sikh of the Guru.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

[gurbanicd]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
waheguru ji ki fateh

I would like to thank sikh_13 for intitiating this thread

Rani_vancouver ji have given complete reply for this.

Will we survive or not will depend upon WILL OF THE LORD, ( jo tis bhave soi karsi)

I would recommend book "Gurmukh Sikhia" ( and all other books also ) by Bhai sahib Bhai Veer Singhji.

Gur fateh

[himmat_singh]

For the attention of 5ikh ji:

Sat Sri Akal

Dear Veer 5ikh ji,

This is apparently an unmoderated topic, to discuss the future of sikhi

Sikhi is about truth, and in the past a moderator has recommended I learn from a couple of respected members, and you are one of the recommended members.

There will be no defamation on my part, as this requires unsubstantiable allegations to be made, and there is nothing I have or wish to hide from the sangat.

Let us see what you have to say about matters of truth, which is the bedrock of Sikhi

Without truth in deeds, there is no future in Sikhi. People can build as many Gurudwaras and make as many speeches as they wish, but if there is failure to uphold truth in deeds, then they are whistling in the wind.

Yesterday in the discussion forum, in the thread related to whether Guru Nanak Dev ji was God, you wrote:

I am sorry for making you get upset, but in no way am I attacking your belief system, whatever that be. What I am questioning and answering is your understand of Sikhi, with mixing couple of ideas together and then presenting them as one. As a Sikh I stand up for truth and this is a public forum where I can add my input on what Sikhi truly is, as I did. So there is no need to get upset here. If you wrote about all three concepts with mix and matching them on your own computer then it is none of my busniness, but again this is a public forum where ideas that are not clearly thought out will be noticed and questioned, where they are corrected, for the betterment of the readers. We are here to learn, Himmat.

Now, I can understand that this is a public forum, and your wish to present a truer picture of what Sikhi is to the public. I would commend this stated aim of yours, to add your input to improve understanding, and am also keen on improving my own understanding of Sikhi. If in any way anybody else’s understanding increases then this can only be beneficial. I am also here to learn.


You have now written that as a Sikh you stand up for truth. Let us test that statement.

You know that you recently submitted two private messages to me, without any prior private correspondence from me to you, and you know their contents. I reported the first to the site administrators, but received no feedback, other than that the matter had been reported and was closed.

This is exactly what you wrote in the message, on 15th August:

Hi

If you don't want to answer my questions then that's fine. But don't try to get in the middle of my and drdln post. I know you figured it out, that I have drdln backed up in a corner and he only has to drop his egosticial ways, but your little games are not helping him, but just making him look like a fool. Leave your childish ways at the play ground.

If you want to be helpful in the thread then stop playing your decieving games.

As Gurbani says truth will prevail.

Good luck in your decieving games.

Bye

There were some quite uncalled for scathing comments here with respect to drdln ji and myself.

You then suggested I am playing some sort of “deceiving games”.

As you stand for truth, I would like you to now publicly substantiate this allegation of playing games of deception.

I did not reply to you and you sent me a further pm, on 17th inst., the text of which is:

Hi

Come to Sikhsangat.com and write your vague post there. You're post will be answered appropriately.

Any time you want to come to BC, Canada do pm so we can meet up and discuss in person.

Bye

Here you called upon me to enter another site. The reasons are known to you, and you made the remark about visiting Canada.

I can only read into actual statements , and so am left to only speculate upon the thoughts in your mind when you wrote those lines.

Following this further pm and the lack of response after reporting the initial message, I was obliged to respond to you. I did reply to you as follows:

Sat Sri Akal 5ikh ji

Did you read the following:
"IMHO, the gurdwaras were originally built by sikhs who were farmers, business men, professionals and then these were forcibly taken by kharkoo singhs who arrived around 1984 to seek political asylum. I am sure there are more than this one reason and that's where help with differing but sincere suggestions is needed. It appears gurdwaras are not being used for worship but for fighting over who wants to be the president.

Surrey Guru Nanak Temple is recent example. But this is not the only gurdwara, and there is fight in almost every gurdwara."

This happened to be a recent post, posted by Dr Dhillon. on thread about why Sikhs keep fighting in Gurudwaras, and the reason he gives is very true.

We all know why numbers of Sikhs in Canada increased markedly in late 80's and early 90's.Extremists had to hide somewhere, but their hearts and minds were always going to stay intolerant to different views. Problems introduced by intolerant fanatics just shift around the world, depending on where the fanatics choose to live.

You don't like vague posts, then thats your problem. If you like specifics, then try to understand Japji Sahib ji. It provides a full solution, to your ills if you care to think about the words. If you still don't understand Sikhi then open SGGS ji and read Guru ji's advice. You will learn something only if you open your closed mind. At present it is locked. You act not like a sikh of any guru but only a sikh your own ego, and act only like a vindictive, intolerant, anti-social child who is throwing a tantrum because it can't get its sweets.

Keep posting though. It makes good reading, and something interesting to write back to.

Have a nice day and enjoy the delights of Canada.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

After this you immediately posted a lengthy post on the thread related to why sikhs keep fighting in Gurudwaras.

Despite the content of that lengthy post, your private messages to me suggest to me that you would not be able to stop yourself if you do not win your argument through a civil discussion. You invited me to another site, and to Canada for a real reason which you chose not to give.

It is simply not good enough or acceptable for you to send private messages, hiding in the veil provided by the private message facility, and then also expect people like myself to expend enormous amounts of time to answer your circuitous questions.

If you manage to explain the private messages satisfactorily, then I am a very forgiving person, and I for one will be fully prepared to continue our public forum dialogue, but cannot with somebody who says one thing publicly but says something quite different behind closed doors.

People who cannot control anger are not capable of improving the future of Sikhi. Such people need to recognise their failings and learn from Guru ji.

Sikhi requires compassionate souls to encourage, inspire and motivate youth to see God in all.

Your fellow friend and sikh, albeit non-amritdhari

Himmat

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

[sikh_13]

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa, Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh !!!

Well I am really pleased that this thread is still continuing and counting. Nice to realise that lots of people are concerned/interested in survival of sikhism. I would not quote from holy text nor would I make any dishonest / selfish remarks. My queries and concerns are very very basic and simple.

I do not agree that my GURU did not have a vision that growing hair would become 'outdated' in about 300 years and he still sacrificed his entire family and followers for the same - so please resist from teaching this 'modernism' theory.

How many times has it happened that ruling / dominant community asks for division of its land (generally it happens the other way around). But the cry for 'punjabi-suba' has lead to a situation wherein punjabi is fighting for its survival.

I feel pained when the hardworking youths of Punjab are escaping the oppurtunity (cos they are not equiped and guided) to go on with an economy growing at over 9% and they sell their lands and go out and work as drivers/labourers in foreign lands.

I feel further pained when i witness the changing demography of Punjab - the land our Gurus and ancestors built. We dont realise the why dont we realise the importance of a 'homeland'. Jews were prosporous world wide till WW2 happened and they realised that they need a foothold to raise their voice - we need the same - please understand 'Punjab' is precious - dont loose it. Jews went back and built the country brick by brick - our future generations (if they exist) would have to do the same.

My agony is not towards any individual or organisation - it is a quest to all true sikhs to stand up.

I read in TOI that sikhs are being asked to leave kashmir valley or embrace islam. i have been there at the height of militancy (1991-1993) - when all the hindus 'fled' overnight - sikhs stayed and stayed without fear. (irony is that they (hindus) still feel like a mother religion). Imagine a scenario when our kids go to school - they would be asked the same question. Dont mind it - but day is not far for 'true sikhs'.

Khalsa Ji - We need to stand up to be a true khalsa. No point just trying avoid things.

I ask a simple question - have anyone of you ever joked about the practices in hindu religion or muslim religion - but then why are we being joked on for being sikhs. Our 12 o' clock was time to rescue their mothers and sister from the invaders but still why we do we have to hear it time and again as a joke.

Think Khalsa Ji - Think !!!

Wahe Guru Ji Ka Khalsa - Wahe Guru Ji Ki Fateh !!!

[5ikh]

For the attention of 5ikh ji:

Sat Sri Akal

Dear Veer 5ikh ji,

This is apparently an unmoderated topic, to discuss the future of sikhi

Sikhi is about truth, and in the past a moderator has recommended I learn from a couple of respected members, and you are one of the recommended members.

There will be no defamation on my part, as this requires unsubstantiable allegations to be made, and there is nothing I have or wish to hide from the sangat.

Let us see what you have to say about matters of truth, which is the bedrock of Sikhi

Without truth in deeds, there is no future in Sikhi. People can build as many Gurudwaras and make as many speeches as they wish, but if there is failure to uphold truth in deeds, then they are whistling in the wind.

Yesterday in the discussion forum, in the thread related to whether Guru Nanak Dev ji was God, you wrote:

I am sorry for making you get upset, but in no way am I attacking your belief system, whatever that be. What I am questioning and answering is your understand of Sikhi, with mixing couple of ideas together and then presenting them as one. As a Sikh I stand up for truth and this is a public forum where I can add my input on what Sikhi truly is, as I did. So there is no need to get upset here. If you wrote about all three concepts with mix and matching them on your own computer then it is none of my busniness, but again this is a public forum where ideas that are not clearly thought out will be noticed and questioned, where they are corrected, for the betterment of the readers. We are here to learn, Himmat.

Now, I can understand that this is a public forum, and your wish to present a truer picture of what Sikhi is to the public. I would commend this stated aim of yours, to add your input to improve understanding, and am also keen on improving my own understanding of Sikhi. If in any way anybody else’s understanding increases then this can only be beneficial. I am also here to learn.


You have now written that as a Sikh you stand up for truth. Let us test that statement.

You know that you recently submitted two private messages to me, without any prior private correspondence from me to you, and you know their contents. I reported the first to the site administrators, but received no feedback, other than that the matter had been reported and was closed.

This is exactly what you wrote in the message, on 15th August:

Hi

If you don't want to answer my questions then that's fine. But don't try to get in the middle of my and drdln post. I know you figured it out, that I have drdln backed up in a corner and he only has to drop his egosticial ways, but your little games are not helping him, but just making him look like a fool. Leave your childish ways at the play ground.

If you want to be helpful in the thread then stop playing your decieving games.

As Gurbani says truth will prevail.

Good luck in your decieving games.

Bye

There were some quite uncalled for scathing comments here with respect to drdln ji and myself.

You then suggested I am playing some sort of “deceiving games”.

As you stand for truth, I would like you to now publicly substantiate this allegation of playing games of deception.

So this post is written by you to defame me here on this site. Himmat I really find that amusing and it is another part of your decieving games here. Surely your diversion tactics from the orgiinal topic at "was Guru Nanak Dev ji God" is done with the intentions to not let truth prevail in that thread. If you find me exposing you for who you are rude or inappropriate, then that is your problem and drdln problem. If I could I would have not sent that message in pm, but would have posted it online for everyone else, so the sangat knows what type of person you are, and what your motives are. As you can see one of the last things I said was truth will prevail. You personal have it out for me and I find that really amusing, because that won't stop me from writing here. Whatever decieving tricks you have up your sleeves should be exposed and will be exposed. Your just lucky the mods give you alot more freedom here, where you can spit your venom at Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as you have done in the thread, "Was Guru Nanak Dev ji God". You say Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji cannot be taken as proof to support Guru Nanak Dev ji is God. This clearly shows you don't regard Guru Sahib as your Guru and you are not a Sikh at all, but belong to a sect that hates Sikhi with passion. But since this is against forum rules, you use reference like Sant x to hide your hatred toward Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and so the message can go through. No one is being fooled my your foul mouth post, even though they are disguised as sweet post. Sikhs recongize when there Guru is being insulted by an outsider, like yourself. I even have asked you to clarifiy who you are actually refering to and you keep playing your childish play ground games. I don't know what kind of amusement you get out of insulting Sikhi and sikhs, but whatever it may be, it is surely twisted and digusting.

I did not reply to you and you sent me a further pm, on 17th inst., the text of which is:

Hi

Come to Sikhsangat.com and write your vague post there. You're post will be answered appropriately.

Any time you want to come to BC, Canada do pm so we can meet up and discuss in person.

Bye

Here you called upon me to enter another site. The reasons are known to you, and you made the remark about visiting Canada.

I can only read into actual statements , and so am left to only speculate upon the thoughts in your mind when you wrote those lines.

Following this further pm and the lack of response after reporting the initial message, I was obliged to respond to you. I did reply to you as follows:

Since this is a moderated forum, I ask you to come to a forum where it is more open and your post will be answered appropriately. There is no hidden agendas, like you have with every post. And coming to BC, well this way you won't be able to run away from the discussion like you do on this forum and you won't insult Guru Sahib when your face to face with me. This way you'll get all your questions and false theories answered. It's truly to benefit you, but here you are insulting Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji in many ways.

Sat Sri Akal 5ikh ji

Did you read the following:
"IMHO, the gurdwaras were originally built by sikhs who were farmers, business men, professionals and then these were forcibly taken by kharkoo singhs who arrived around 1984 to seek political asylum. I am sure there are more than this one reason and that's where help with differing but sincere suggestions is needed. It appears gurdwaras are not being used for worship but for fighting over who wants to be the president.

Surrey Guru Nanak Temple is recent example. But this is not the only gurdwara, and there is fight in almost every gurdwara."

This happened to be a recent post, posted by Dr Dhillon. on thread about why Sikhs keep fighting in Gurudwaras, and the reason he gives is very true.

We all know why numbers of Sikhs in Canada increased markedly in late 80's and early 90's.Extremists had to hide somewhere, but their hearts and minds were always going to stay intolerant to different views. Problems introduced by intolerant fanatics just shift around the world, depending on where the fanatics choose to live.

You don't like vague posts, then thats your problem. If you like specifics, then try to understand Japji Sahib ji. It provides a full solution, to your ills if you care to think about the words. If you still don't understand Sikhi then open SGGS ji and read Guru ji's advice. You will learn something only if you open your closed mind. At present it is locked. You act not like a sikh of any guru but only a sikh your own ego, and act only like a vindictive, intolerant, anti-social child who is throwing a tantrum because it can't get its sweets.

Keep posting though. It makes good reading, and something interesting to write back to.

Have a nice day and enjoy the delights of Canada.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

After this you immediately posted a lengthy post on the thread related to why sikhs keep fighting in Gurudwaras.

Despite the content of that lengthy post, your private messages to me suggest to me that you would not be able to stop yourself if you do not win your argument through a civil discussion. You invited me to another site, and to Canada for a real reason which you chose not to give.

It is simply not good enough or acceptable for you to send private messages, hiding in the veil provided by the private message facility, and then also expect people like myself to expend enormous amounts of time to answer your circuitous questions.

If you manage to explain the private messages satisfactorily, then I am a very forgiving person, and I for one will be fully prepared to continue our public forum dialogue, but cannot with somebody who says one thing publicly but says something quite different behind closed doors.

People who cannot control anger are not capable of improving the future of Sikhi. Such people need to recognise their failings and learn from Guru ji.

Sikhi requires compassionate souls to encourage, inspire and motivate youth to see God in all.

Your fellow friend and sikh, albeit non-amritdhari

Himmat

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

I did not write on that topic because you sent me that pm. I wrote their because I wanted to give your buddy, partner in crime, drdln a message back. I had already planned to write there, even before you sent me that pm. When time permitted I wrote there. Drdln is here to get some free promotion for home made theories and to mislead the people who visit this forum. And your is side kick to step in whenever he, drdln is backed up a corner and his so called logic is being exposed. Even the mods have wrote on the forum that these same people run off when they are backed up in a corner. So it not just me witnessing these type of acts by you and drdln on this forum.

Lastly, you did not defame me on this site, you did not accomplish your goal at all. So have a nice day. And just in case you want to know. I don't hate you Himmat because a person can change, but I do hate your ways, you conduct yourself here, because it is untruthful and cunning.

Side note: your fateh is just added at every post, if you actually looked into it, then you would not insult Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. So stop being politically correct and start being honest.

Sorry to everyone else that was trying to have a discussion here and thenHimmat came to take everything off topic. I just needed to respond to Himmat and this will be the last. So Himmat if you want to discuss this further, then do it through pm or whatever. Stay off this topic as it is not what we are discussing. Everyone will appreciate it that you do keep this matter we discuss out of this topic. And if your on a mission to defame me or expose me or whatever, I say good luck to that.

[5ikh]

Our religion will survive but will continue to evolve with changes in culture and religious practices. Science and logic will be dominant factor for changes with every religion and we are no exception, IMO.

There are so many things wrong with this statement. Hard to believe a person with a phd will say it, or is it said with the intention to spit venom at Sikhi. I believe it's the latter (it's the the first time this member has done this). Anyways in the above this clearly shows that Dr. Sukhraj Dhillon believes that science is higher than Gurbani and knows more than Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Khalsa. Further to say Sikhi will change means Sikhi is not universal and eternal. Let me ask a question to Dr. Sukhraj Dhillon, surely it won't be answered, but the question is there. God is eternal and if Sikhi the path which we follow is full of mistakes like you say, then how can this path take us to God the eternal being, without mistakes?

[5ikh]

Here is a question for the sangat. How do we deal with people on this forum that are here to slander and misrepresent Sikhi in a bad light. So far i can see two and a third member that are here to do this. All three have taken the opportunity to write on this topic and have done exactly what they are here to do. To slander and misrepesent Sikhi in any possible way. They have no respect for Gurbani and misquote it for theire selfish ways. Do we just ignore there post hoping they will go away or write to correct them and then get caught in a trap where it allows them to spit and slander on Guru Sahib even more. What do you guys think we should do about this problem?

[himmat_singh]

Sat Sri Akal

Thanks to recent input on this thread, it should be clear Sikhism faces very challenging issues. When sikhs accuse others of not acting truthfully without any reason other than machinations created by their own minds, and without a shred of evidence to support their claims, they are going to find it very difficult to attract aspirants and to retain existing sikhs. This happens frequently in gurudwaras that witness infighting between sikhs. There is often little substance, if any, to the dramas.

I hear it regularly said by sikh friends, from sikh relatives, from my own children and of my relatives that sikhs are intolerant, and are incapable of delivering sikh philosophy in a comprehensible way without an insistence upon technicalities, ritual and ceremonies that usually accompanies hinduism. Some, sadlly, have left to join a far more peaceful sect that has no room for ceremony or intolerant behaviour. I know they are right about the current status, but I am convinced sikhi, as taught by SGGS ji is not like that. Aspirants do not need to listen to intolerant Sikhs, or sect leaders, as they can turn to SGGS ji to guide them. There is sikhi to show the world one is a Sikh, and/or supports a local gurudwara with the odd mention of one's name to the sangat when a ceremony is held or some money is donated, and there is sikhi to devote oneself to God and to live truthfully. The latter can of course still appear as a Sikh, but aspirants find it easier to tar all with the same brush, rather than look under the veneer.

There are forces at play that make it difficult for sikhi to surface, to allow SGGS ji to enlighten people with the philosophy available in SGGS ji. People are forced to sit through recitals and go through meaningless ceremony. They are forced to conform instead of allowed to worship God collectively and with understanding, and whilst at ease without any chance of rebukes from the overseers. They are not introduced to the concepts in SGGS ji that would allow them to achieve inner peace and contentment, with concomitant destruction of the 5 evils.

If they are taught the lessons, which are not too extensive and do not require repetitive recitals, it is possible they can achieve inner peace and contentment, and can still go about their daily business. They can live truthfully, true to their inner souls and to God. Without this ability to live truthfully, they instead succumb to one or more of the 5 evils, and/or put on a drama for God, who knows all inside out.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

[stand for truth]

dear sadh sangat ji
will we survive???? great question!!!!!!!!! but what are we doing to fight back. may be our enemies are strong, but reality is we lack. where the problem lies exactly? i request sadh sangat to point fingers on ourselves, where do we lack? why after spending huge money we are not seeing any change? how can we bring change? so its time to ruminate where we lack? forget politicians, sikh leadership. we have our leader "GURU GRANTH SAHIB".