Our Sikh Youth

Discussion of life's dilemmas, blessings and challenges. Got Questions? Need Answers? This is the place to be. Feel comfortable with asking any question. Anonymous posting is allowed. Questions are answered by anyone in the sangat who feels they can help.

Re: Our Sikh Youth

Postby Guest » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:06 am

You have failed to respond to incest. What if you love a cousin or brother/aiatwr. Shouldnone have aex with them too? You could argue that god created us to want incestjust as you can say god created homosexuals. If two people are related and are consentinf, what makes that wrong and homosexual intercourse okay? Seeing as neither are strictly banned? Any response to why you're cherry-picking what should be allowed and what isn't? It would be your Western lgbt rights thats is affecting your judgement in this subject for what's permitted in sikhi. If society started thinking incest was okay, would you start to then argue that it's allowed in sikhi because its between two consenting human adults and because one can have love for a family member?

JeejaJi wrote:You are making argument that Sikhi does not take anything away from anyone. But you are saying that homosexuals need to give up sex if they want to be Sikh. Their legal marriage needs to be annulled if they want to be Sikhs. Basically you are saying that god created homosexual people, he/she tricked them into loving a person of same sex and then he/she took away their rights. I can’t argue with that kind of reasoning.

You are referring to sex with animals while I was referring to sex among consenting adults. How is an animal not able to speak the same as consent?


Punjabi267 wrote:Sikhi isn't taking anything away from anyone. You may do as you wish, but if you want to live as a gurmukh then you cannot justify the need for lustful acts. Being amrtdhari has a price on everyone. For some it would be no oral , or lust. Some people the price is no halal meat or no more cutting hair. It's not just a price to pay for a homosexual. Also, the argument that its not written anywhere that it is banned to do oral acts or other sexual acts? Well, ny that logic, its not said anywhere that you shouldnt have sex with animals. Or what about having sex with children, that's not written either. What about sex with family /incest. Should those too be allowed? As a gursikh you cannot make special rules for homosexuals just because of the modern LGBT movements. As an amritdhari, there will be a price to pay for everyone. At the end of the day, your love should be towards waheguru. Marriage is what combines our souls to one for waheguru. The thing about homosexuality, is sex outside marriage is forbidden. A homosexual is not allowed to take the anand kaaraj ceremony as it is for a man and a woman. Its has historically always been like this. If you wish to challenge this, then go find a gurdwara that will allow the ceremony. Our gurus gave us the panth and the panth will make the decision. Now, if a homosexual is unable to get married in sikhi, then they are not alloeed to have sex either as sex outside marriage isn't allowed. And remember , for our actions, the intention is what our gurus have historically looked at. If you're committing a lustful act such as oral sex or anal etc, than how may that be justified? Natually, sex is for reproduction purposes. Our mind makes it into pleasure purposes and thatd ehat falls under lust. And unless you can agree that incest, sex with animals and children is allowed, than your argument for why homosexual sex is allowed is not valid. Because its not writted that the others are allowed but im sure you can come up with reasons why incest and sex with children or animals are wrong. And if you want to bring the consent argument forwards in response to that, some animals eill not object if you were to have sex with them and also you can have consent with a family member to have sex. They are both still wrong and you'd be disgusting to think otherwise..

JeejaJi wrote:So your logic is that sex should only be between a husband and a wife and only for reproduction? So, no pleasure sex, no foreplay or anything because it is lust. And you are using that argument to say that Sikh accepts homosexuality but does not accept their behavior because oral sex and ways other than intercourse are integral in homosexual situations which of course is not allowed per your argument. And you took masturbation away from gay/lesbian Sikhs as well.

Help me understand if god created gays and not allow them to have sex, why create them? Why create heterosexuals and put the idea of arousal in them? Is it some sort of divine test? Human body is a sophisticated machine and I am sure god could have found another way for reproductive mechanism that works for everyone and not just for heterosexuals. Or a way that humans could involve in reproduction without getting aroused so that there is no need for pleasure sex or masturbation? Let me know your thoughts before we go any further.

And the video link you posted, there are many others that make the argument for pleasure sec among married couples (search Nanak Naam from uk) and others who say what two consenting adults do in their private life is irrelevant to Sikhi discussion (search For Sikhi and sex). Anyways, lets stick to your viewpoint.
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Re: Our Sikh Youth

Postby JeejaJi » Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:27 am

I didn’t address your point because it is illogical and does not pertain to this discussion. You are trying to validate what’s illegal in most jurisdictions. My point was that you are arguing to take away legal rights of homosexual community by saying that they can’t be married and be Sikhs. This contradicts what you said earlier that Sikhi does not take away anything from anyone. Stay with your line of reasoning instead of trying to convolute the discussion.


Punjabi267 wrote:You have failed to respond to incest. What if you love a cousin or brother/aiatwr. Shouldnone have aex with them too? You could argue that god created us to want incestjust as you can say god created homosexuals. If two people are related and are consentinf, what makes that wrong and homosexual intercourse okay? Seeing as neither are strictly banned? Any response to why you're cherry-picking what should be allowed and what isn't? It would be your Western lgbt rights thats is affecting your judgement in this subject for what's permitted in sikhi. If society started thinking incest was okay, would you start to then argue that it's allowed in sikhi because its between two consenting human adults and because one can have love for a family member?

JeejaJi wrote:You are making argument that Sikhi does not take anything away from anyone. But you are saying that homosexuals need to give up sex if they want to be Sikh. Their legal marriage needs to be annulled if they want to be Sikhs. Basically you are saying that god created homosexual people, he/she tricked them into loving a person of same sex and then he/she took away their rights. I can’t argue with that kind of reasoning.

You are referring to sex with animals while I was referring to sex among consenting adults. How is an animal not able to speak the same as consent?


Punjabi267 wrote:Sikhi isn't taking anything away from anyone. You may do as you wish, but if you want to live as a gurmukh then you cannot justify the need for lustful acts. Being amrtdhari has a price on everyone. For some it would be no oral , or lust. Some people the price is no halal meat or no more cutting hair. It's not just a price to pay for a homosexual. Also, the argument that its not written anywhere that it is banned to do oral acts or other sexual acts? Well, ny that logic, its not said anywhere that you shouldnt have sex with animals. Or what about having sex with children, that's not written either. What about sex with family /incest. Should those too be allowed? As a gursikh you cannot make special rules for homosexuals just because of the modern LGBT movements. As an amritdhari, there will be a price to pay for everyone. At the end of the day, your love should be towards waheguru. Marriage is what combines our souls to one for waheguru. The thing about homosexuality, is sex outside marriage is forbidden. A homosexual is not allowed to take the anand kaaraj ceremony as it is for a man and a woman. Its has historically always been like this. If you wish to challenge this, then go find a gurdwara that will allow the ceremony. Our gurus gave us the panth and the panth will make the decision. Now, if a homosexual is unable to get married in sikhi, then they are not alloeed to have sex either as sex outside marriage isn't allowed. And remember , for our actions, the intention is what our gurus have historically looked at. If you're committing a lustful act such as oral sex or anal etc, than how may that be justified? Natually, sex is for reproduction purposes. Our mind makes it into pleasure purposes and thatd ehat falls under lust. And unless you can agree that incest, sex with animals and children is allowed, than your argument for why homosexual sex is allowed is not valid. Because its not writted that the others are allowed but im sure you can come up with reasons why incest and sex with children or animals are wrong. And if you want to bring the consent argument forwards in response to that, some animals eill not object if you were to have sex with them and also you can have consent with a family member to have sex. They are both still wrong and you'd be disgusting to think otherwise..
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Re: Our Sikh Youth

Postby Guest » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:52 pm

Ahh this is where you've misunderstood. Nowhere have I said sikhi does not take away from anyone. There is a price for everyone to become part of the khalsa. For a homosexual, that means no sex outside marriage , good luck trying to have a homosexual sikh marriage because it's not allowed. You make find some gurdwareh offer it if you pay them enough. But other people have a price too. Some people find it hard not eating halal kfc etc so.thst can be their price. Some people find it hard to not cut any hairs/kesh. That's their price. There's a price for everyone to become part of the khalsa, not just homosexuals. Also whats illegal in most jurisdictions doesn't necessarily mean wrong morally or banned religiously. For example, we wear kirpans as a religious requirement, but thats banned in mamy jurisdictions too. Does that make it wrong or unaccepted in sikhi? Of course not. I understand you seek legal rights for sikh homosexuals but anyone can throw that argument up. People in favour of incest will say society is taking away their legal rights. People who want consentual sex with minors will say their rights are taken. Anyome can throw that argument up but its not a valid argument given the context. One can be homosexual if they choose byt to be part of the khalsa, one will have to give something up and that includes homosexual sex, lust, halal, kech cutting , etc the list goes on.

JeejaJi wrote:I didn’t address your point because it is illogical and does not pertain to this discussion. You are trying to validate what’s illegal in most jurisdictions. My point was that you are arguing to take away legal rights of homosexual community by saying that they can’t be married and be Sikhs. This contradicts what you said earlier that Sikhi does not take away anything from anyone. Stay with your line of reasoning instead of trying to convolute the discussion.


Punjabi267 wrote:You have failed to respond to incest. What if you love a cousin or brother/aiatwr. Shouldnone have aex with them too? You could argue that god created us to want incestjust as you can say god created homosexuals. If two people are related and are consentinf, what makes that wrong and homosexual intercourse okay? Seeing as neither are strictly banned? Any response to why you're cherry-picking what should be allowed and what isn't? It would be your Western lgbt rights thats is affecting your judgement in this subject for what's permitted in sikhi. If society started thinking incest was okay, would you start to then argue that it's allowed in sikhi because its between two consenting human adults and because one can have love for a family member?

You are making argument that Sikhi does not take anything away from anyone. But you are saying that homosexuals need to give up sex if they want to be Sikh. Their legal marriage needs to be annulled if they want to be Sikhs. Basically you are saying that god created homosexual people, he/she tricked them into loving a person of same sex and then he/she took away their rights. I can’t argue with that kind of reasoning.

You are referring to sex with animals while I was referring to sex among consenting adults. How is an animal not able to speak the same as consent?


Punjabi267 wrote:Sikhi isn't taking anything away from anyone. You may do as you wish, but if you want to live as a gurmukh then you cannot justify the need for lustful acts. Being amrtdhari has a price on everyone. For some it would be no oral , or lust. Some people the price is no halal meat or no more cutting hair. It's not just a price to pay for a homosexual. Also, the argument that its not written anywhere that it is banned to do oral acts or other sexual acts? Well, ny that logic, its not said anywhere that you shouldnt have sex with animals. Or what about having sex with children, that's not written either. What about sex with family /incest. Should those too be allowed? As a gursikh you cannot make special rules for homosexuals just because of the modern LGBT movements. As an amritdhari, there will be a price to pay for everyone. At the end of the day, your love should be towards waheguru. Marriage is what combines our souls to one for waheguru. The thing about homosexuality, is sex outside marriage is forbidden. A homosexual is not allowed to take the anand kaaraj ceremony as it is for a man and a woman. Its has historically always been like this. If you wish to challenge this, then go find a gurdwara that will allow the ceremony. Our gurus gave us the panth and the panth will make the decision. Now, if a homosexual is unable to get married in sikhi, then they are not alloeed to have sex either as sex outside marriage isn't allowed. And remember , for our actions, the intention is what our gurus have historically looked at. If you're committing a lustful act such as oral sex or anal etc, than how may that be justified? Natually, sex is for reproduction purposes. Our mind makes it into pleasure purposes and thatd ehat falls under lust. And unless you can agree that incest, sex with animals and children is allowed, than your argument for why homosexual sex is allowed is not valid. Because its not writted that the others are allowed but im sure you can come up with reasons why incest and sex with children or animals are wrong. And if you want to bring the consent argument forwards in response to that, some animals eill not object if you were to have sex with them and also you can have consent with a family member to have sex. They are both still wrong and you'd be disgusting to think otherwise..
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Re: Our Sikh Youth

Postby JeejaJi » Thu Aug 22, 2019 11:07 pm

No, I didn’t misunderstood you. In your response on August 1st, your first line says that Sikhi does not take anything from anyone but now you are saying something different.

Anyways, now you are equating Khalsa and Sikhi. So, you are saying that one who cuts hair cannot be a Sikh. Why didn’t Guru Nanak say that one should grow hair? Why isn’t it in the Guru Granth? Guru Gobind could have put these principles in writing if defining Sikhi. By your definition, Bala and Mardana can’t be Sikhs despite hanging out with Guru Nanak for a long time.

Back to the point of homosexuality. You are arguing that God created them, tricked them into falling in love with same sex and took away any option to be a Sikh unless they totally gave up sex and also give up their legal right to marry. Whoa! that’s cruelty by lord.


Guest wrote:Ahh this is where you've misunderstood. Nowhere have I said sikhi does not take away from anyone. There is a price for everyone to become part of the khalsa. For a homosexual, that means no sex outside marriage , good luck trying to have a homosexual sikh marriage because it's not allowed. You make find some gurdwareh offer it if you pay them enough. But other people have a price too. Some people find it hard not eating halal kfc etc so.thst can be their price. Some people find it hard to not cut any hairs/kesh. That's their price. There's a price for everyone to become part of the khalsa, not just homosexuals. Also whats illegal in most jurisdictions doesn't necessarily mean wrong morally or banned religiously. For example, we wear kirpans as a religious requirement, but thats banned in mamy jurisdictions too. Does that make it wrong or unaccepted in sikhi? Of course not. I understand you seek legal rights for sikh homosexuals but anyone can throw that argument up. People in favour of incest will say society is taking away their legal rights. People who want consentual sex with minors will say their rights are taken. Anyome can throw that argument up but its not a valid argument given the context. One can be homosexual if they choose byt to be part of the khalsa, one will have to give something up and that includes homosexual sex, lust, halal, kech cutting , etc the list goes on.

JeejaJi wrote:I didn’t address your point because it is illogical and does not pertain to this discussion. You are trying to validate what’s illegal in most jurisdictions. My point was that you are arguing to take away legal rights of homosexual community by saying that they can’t be married and be Sikhs. This contradicts what you said earlier that Sikhi does not take away anything from anyone. Stay with your line of reasoning instead of trying to convolute the discussion.


Punjabi267 wrote:You have failed to respond to incest. What if you love a cousin or brother/aiatwr. Shouldnone have aex with them too? You could argue that god created us to want incestjust as you can say god created homosexuals. If two people are related and are consentinf, what makes that wrong and homosexual intercourse okay? Seeing as neither are strictly banned? Any response to why you're cherry-picking what should be allowed and what isn't? It would be your Western lgbt rights thats is affecting your judgement in this subject for what's permitted in sikhi. If society started thinking incest was okay, would you start to then argue that it's allowed in sikhi because its between two consenting human adults and because one can have love for a family member?

You are making argument that Sikhi does not take anything away from anyone. But you are saying that homosexuals need to give up sex if they want to be Sikh. Their legal marriage needs to be annulled if they want to be Sikhs. Basically you are saying that god created homosexual people, he/she tricked them into loving a person of same sex and then he/she took away their rights. I can’t argue with that kind of reasoning.

You are referring to sex with animals while I was referring to sex among consenting adults. How is an animal not able to speak the same as consent?


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Re: Our Sikh Youth

Postby singh sahib » Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:55 am

The discussion going on doesn't seem to be healthy one. The crux is missing. Youths are not reading message in gurbani, themselves rather depend on so called preachers. They mislead them. If youth start reading and understanding gurbani themselves, they can never indulge in anything that is not good for them. Normally, human beings are not gifted with BIBEK BUDH ( The power of discrimination between right and wrong). Routine reading/understanding of gurbani awakes our BIBEK BUDH. With that, all problems get automatically resolved under the direct guidance of Almighty. Any further clarification can be had by sending email through profile section. Thanks
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