Sikhism Contradictions?? Help!

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gurinder901
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Sikhism Contradictions?? Help!

Post by gurinder901 »

So I was surfing through the web regarding Sikhisim and had a few questions about it. I came up with this somewhere on the internet and it posed a lot of questions regarding our Sikh faith. Can someone please help me answer it?

1. It teaches the contradictory concepts of God being Sargun i.e. with attributes and also Nirgun -without attributes (p287; p102).
2. It teaches reincarnation and yet the Guru Granth Sahib questions reincarnation(p748 M5; p1366 Kabir).
3. It teaches the concept of hell (p465 M1; p524 M5; p793 Ravidass; p875 Ravidass; p1383 Farid; Asa Kabirji GGS p484). And yet says hell does not exist (p969 Kabir). And it also teaches the mutually exclusive concept of karma & transmigration. If you are born again and again to pay for the sins of previous lives, why the need for hell or heaven? (p686; p156; Rag Malhar M3; Rag Gauri M5)
4. The Guru Granth Sahib says neither Hinduism nor Islam has the truth (p329 Kabir; p875 Namdev) and yet says that the opposite (contrary) is also true(p1350 Kabir).Guru Arjun Dev even validates the Vedas (p632 M5). And guru Govind Singh says Allah & Abhek (Ram) are the same and the Koran and Hindu scriptures are the same (Akal Ustat vs 16:86).
5. It claims that there is only one way to God (p920 M3; p1279 M1) and yet the Guru Granth Sahib also teaches there are many ways to God (p885 M5.7. It teaches that all humans are children of God ( p1118 M4) yet also says, not all, but only those who love Him are His children (p658 Ravidass).
6. The guru says that he is blind, ignorant and without enlightenment (p696 M4) yet he is called ?guru?, which means one who leads from darkness to light.
7. It teaches the existence of Heaven (p718 Namdev; p952 M3) yet the concept of Heaven is rejected(p969 Kabir).
8. It teaches that the world is a dream, an illusion and not real (p740 M5; p1187 M9 p1231 M9)yet guru Nanak says it is real (p463 M1).
9. Guru Arjun Dev claims that he was given supernatural powers (p782 M5) yet guru Nanak, admitted to the Siddh yogis that he performed no miracles(Bhai Gurdas Var 1.42/43)
10. The Guru Granth Sahib rejects the Vedas (p329 Kabir) yet Guru Arjun Dev validates the Vedas (p632 M5). He also quotes them as though an authority(p632 M5). Guru Nanak also quotes them as though an authority (p831 M1).The fourth guru does the same and quotes them as though an authority (p998 M4). Namdev quotes the Gita as though an authority (p874 Namdev). Ravidass quotes the sage Vyas as though an authority (p658 Ravidass).
11. The Guru Granth Sahib says that everything was created by the agency of millions of Brahmas (p1156 M5). Yet the one God created everything ( p1 M1).
12. Dhanna jat is said to have worshipped a stone and God appeared to him. Yet stone worshipping is condemned (p1160 Kabir).
Guru Granth Sahib gives no account of the creation of man and in fact says the Semitic books are false (p329 Kabir). Yet itself validates the existence of Baba Adam (p1161 Kabir).
13. The Guru Granth Sahib teaches that God does not incarnate (p1136 M5) yet talks of the Nehklank Avatar (p1403 Swayyas).
14. The gurus never called themselves divine, but in fact sinners in need of salvation by the Grace of God. (p156 M1; p536 M5; p261 M5; M5 p1301). Yet Swayyas sing praises and laudations to them and make them divine (p1405 Swayyas; p1407 Swayyas; p1408 Swayyas; p1409 Swayyas).
15. It teaches monism i.e. all is one reality and God is all (p846 M5; p464 Var M1; p1291 Var Malar M1; p131 Majh M5. Yet says that man is not the same essence as God but only resembles Him (p754 Suhi M3).



I am not trying to prove Sikhism is wrong or has any contradictions. I just want logical answers to counter this person. Please don't observe this as an attack or anything. Thank you.

________________________
Moderator note: You are reviving a long old discussion from 2002:
http://fateh.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discus ... enDocument

Such contradictions exist in the mind of reader who is unable to reconcile them by putting them in proper context. There are numerous examples to help understand that "contradictions" can be valid. A father loves his child but also punishes him and thus causes pain... blind men examining an elephant (simple statements cannot be complete truth) .... etc.

The Sikhs believe in devotion to God as paramount and they endeavor to understand gurbani verses in proper context. For example, the Guru being humble denied being divine but the Sikh found that the Guru was divine, as we see in the sawayyas above. Both statements are complimentary, not contradictory.

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥
Do not call the Vedas the Bible and the Koran false. He who refuses to understand is false. [1350.5]
swarn bains
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Re: Sikhism Contradictions?? Help!

Post by swarn bains »

you are probably trying to write a paper for phd. please do not do it on Sree Guru Granth Sahib. it will always be beyoud the thinking of the phd scholars
gurinder901
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Re: Sikhism Contradictions?? Help!

Post by gurinder901 »

The thing is, I want answers to these posed contradictions. What I mean by that is I want a contradiction to the contradiction imposed on Sikhism. I want to know how I can counter these. Simply stating that a father punishing his son but then loving him at the same time is not contradictory but complimentary - as you stated. However, these posed contradictions aren't emotionally driven. These are facts being pointed out. A father punishes a son for many reasons; could be due to the son's acts or the father wants to teach the son a lesson, father loves the son and so on and so forth.

These contradictions aren't imposing a motive. It's not like, for example, God wanted us to know that he has attributes and then at the same time claim that he doesn't have attributes. There's no motive behind this - it's just a contradiction.

I need help guys.
gurinder901
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Re: Sikhism Contradictions?? Help!

Post by gurinder901 »

swarn bains wrote:you are probably trying to write a paper for phd. please do not do it on Sree Guru Granth Sahib. it will always be beyoud the thinking of the phd scholars
I'm not writing a paper for PhD. But even if I was doing that, why can't I write it on Guru Granth Sahib? Are you trying to imply that I should do it on other Gurus? Would scholars understand them? If still not, what does that prove?
Singh2000
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Re: Sikhism Contradictions?? Help!

Post by Singh2000 »

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh

Gurinder901 Ji,

Can you please write shabad which you find contradictory with page #.

I tried the first one which is not contradictory. May be translation is giving some confusion.

On Page 102:
ਤੂੰ ਨਿਰਗੁਣੁ ਸਰਗੁਣੁ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ॥
तूं निरगुणु सरगुणु सुखदाता ॥
Ŧūʼn nirguṇ sarguṇ sukẖ▫ḏāṯa.
You transcend all qualities, and You possess the supreme qualities. You are the Giver of peace.

On Page 287:
ਨਿਰਗੁਨੁ ਆਪਿ ਸਰਗੁਨੁ ਭੀ ਓਹੀ ॥
निरगुनु आपि सरगुनु भी ओही ॥
Nirgun āp sargun bẖī ohī.
He Himself is absolute and unrelated; He Himself is also involved and related.

Thanks!
gurinder901
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Re: Sikhism Contradictions?? Help!

Post by gurinder901 »

Singh2000 wrote:Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh

Gurinder901 Ji,

Can you please write shabad which you find contradictory with page #.

I tried the first one which is not contradictory. May be translation is giving some confusion.

On Page 102:
ਤੂੰ ਨਿਰਗੁਣੁ ਸਰਗੁਣੁ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ॥
तूं निरगुणु सरगुणु सुखदाता ॥
Ŧūʼn nirguṇ sarguṇ sukẖ▫ḏāṯa.
You transcend all qualities, and You possess the supreme qualities. You are the Giver of peace.

On Page 287:
ਨਿਰਗੁਨੁ ਆਪਿ ਸਰਗੁਨੁ ਭੀ ਓਹੀ ॥
निरगुनु आपि सरगुनु भी ओही ॥
Nirgun āp sargun bẖī ohī.
He Himself is absolute and unrelated; He Himself is also involved and related.

Thanks!

I think the point of that quote on P102 and P287 was to refer to this one:

Nirankaar aakaar aap nirgun sargun ayk.
He Himself is formless and also formed; the One Lord is without attributes and also with attributes.
(Guru Arjan Dev pg.250)

Aap akaar aap nirankaar
He Himself is formed, and He Himself is formless.
(Guru Arjan Dev, pg.863)

Raaj joban prabh thoon dhhanee, thoon niragun thoon saragunee

O God, You are my power, authority and youth. You are absolute, without attributes, and also related, with the most sublime attributes.
(Guru Arjan Dev, pg.211)


The term 'gun' is defined as attributes; 'sar' means all, and 'nar' means none. The quote you mentioned (and mentioned in my previous post) refers to Sargun and Nargun. This concept promotes God's duality and his existence as containing attributes and containing no attributes at the same time. But how is this possible? How could God exist with attributes and exist without attributes at the same time? That seems contradictory for the reasons because if we accept that God is one, then he is not divisible. He has no parts, no body, no attributes. He can't HAVE attributes and NOT HAVE attributes at the same time. That does not make sense.
IJJSingh
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Re: Sikhism Contradictions?? Help!

Post by IJJSingh »

Gurinder901 ji,

I do not see any contradiction or duality in the verses you have quoted above.

God existed before creation in only a nirgun form. After God created creation out of himself, he/she is existing in both nirgun and sargun form (the portion of God which is creation is the sargun form). A time will come, when Creation will disappear into God again, and only the nirgun form will remain.

Sargun and nirgun are two parts of the One God. There is nothing else but God anywhere. When there is only One God pervading everywhere, how can there be duality? Duality and contradiction arise if you mistakenly see nirgun God as a separate entity from a sargun God, which is not the case.

Let me use an example: A large portion of Canada is water (lakes). If somebody says Canada is water, Canada is land. They are saying nothing contradictory, nor are they talking about two separate countries.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh
Superstar
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Re: Sikhism Contradictions?? Help!

Post by Superstar »

You are relying on translations and thus you see contradictions. Gurbani needs to be contemplated and understood. Also, Gurbani needs to be understood with Gurmat dictionary and not scholar (pandit) dictionary. Scholars are not well versed in Gurbani and don't understand. They keep using literal meanings and thus lack the true wisdom.
gurinder901
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Re: Sikhism Contradictions?? Help!

Post by gurinder901 »

IJJSingh wrote:Gurinder901 ji,

I do not see any contradiction or duality in the verses you have quoted above.

God existed before creation in only a nirgun form. After God created creation out of himself, he/she is existing in both nirgun and sargun form (the portion of God which is creation is the sargun form). A time will come, when Creation will disappear into God again, and only the nirgun form will remain.

Sargun and nirgun are two parts of the One God. There is nothing else but God anywhere. When there is only One God pervading everywhere, how can there be duality? Duality and contradiction arise if you mistakenly see nirgun God as a separate entity from a sargun God, which is not the case.

Let me use an example: A large portion of Canada is water (lakes). If somebody says Canada is water, Canada is land. They are saying nothing contradictory, nor are they talking about two separate countries.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

If God has parts, then he is not One. I think you aren't understanding of the definition of 'God is One'. God being One is defined as an entity without any parts, without any body, without any physical features, or any as such. God does not have a part of him that exists (Sargun) and another part that does not exist (Nargun). Having two parts of 'One' = a concept known as Duality; which is further defined as an instance of opposition or contrast between two concepts or two aspects of something; a dualism.

Canada has two parts (theoretically as you stated) because Canada is not One. Canada is divided into provinces, territories, and is a division of land/water on Earth. God is no such entity. He exists solely as One and Only One. He exists as a single, most-powerful entity in the universe without any division or parts. And if we accept that, the notion of Nirgun and Sargun don't make sense.

And question: could you clarify this for me?
After God created creation out of himself, he/she is existing in both nirgun and sargun form (the portion of God which is creation is the sargun form)
gurinder901
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Re: Sikhism Contradictions?? Help!

Post by gurinder901 »

Superstar wrote:You are relying on translations and thus you see contradictions. Gurbani needs to be contemplated and understood. Also, Gurbani needs to be understood with Gurmat dictionary and not scholar (pandit) dictionary. Scholars are not well versed in Gurbani and don't understand. They keep using literal meanings and thus lack the true wisdom.
Why is it not possible for Gurbani to be translated into scholar dictionary? Why is there judgement towards scholars being not well versed and not understanding? Shouldn't everyone be treated equally? I mean, English is the universal language. Why can't "everyone" understand this context in a scholarly terminology? Another thing, if I can't use translations to understand Gurbani, then that means only those who can contemplate Gurbani can receive the message of God (aka Amrit Shaks). Why can't everyone else receive the same universal, God message universally? Isn't God for all of mankind and humanity, and not for just certain people?
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