Windsor Protests Gurdwara's "Dictators"

[kaur_123]

WINDSOR PROTEST'S GURDWARA'S 'DICTATORS'

About 300 members of the Sikh community gathered Sunday to protest the current governing of Windsor's Sikh temple.

The congregation of Gurdwara Khalsa Parkash, Windsor's 26,000-square-foot temple, has been steeped in conflict since the current executive committee was acclaimed in December 2009.

Hoisting signs reading "religion is a right, not a privilege" and "we need leaders, not dictators," members young and old protested peacefully outside the temple's formidable gates.

"It's all about our human rights and our freedom of religion," said Satinder Aujla, a 16-year member of the temple.

She said her main concern is the surveillance cameras that were recently installed throughout the temple, including in the prayer hall.

"How can you pray and be at peace when you have cameras shooting down at you and recording your prayers?

"It totally contradicts what you are there to do and praying should be between just you and your God."

While some protesters chanted "peace not police," inside, members continued to pray in silence without disruption.

Windsor police stood by during the protest "just in case," but left without incident.

The current executive committee's secretary Harjinder Singh Kandola said the actions of the protesters are only hurting the already damaged image of Sikhs in the community.

"We come here to worship and praise God, not to come and start making accusations against people," Kandola said.

"Since 9-11 things were really different for minorities so we should be working on productive things like promoting Sikh brotherhood, Canadian values and how we can improve our image."

Kandola said the cameras were installed for security after someone broke into the temple.

He said cameras are commonly found in temples throughout India as well.

Two Sikhs have been issued trespass notices by the executive in recent months, accused of causing disruptions in the temple. Another has had her membership in the local Sikh society revoked and another Sikh is facing a membership revocation.

Windsor allergist Dr. Sukdev Singh Kooner, a former executive committee member, said the exiled Sikhs have followed the outlined procedures to appeal their ousters, but their requests have gone unanswered.

"More than just surveillance, the issues are that nobody can speak there, people have been given trespass notices and they cannot attend the service," Kooner said.

For 13-year-old Gurleen Dhaliwal, the temple should be a place of worship, not politics.

"We come here to pray to God, not somebody else and that's just not happening because of all the drama," said Dhaliwal, who was among the group of protesters.

"The temple needs to be respected and you shouldn't be able to just change it, it has to stay the way it is."

Read more: http://www.windsorstar.com/life/Sikh+te ... z0uwDdgQ6e

[Guest]

In my opinion, this protest was a good idea. The reasons that the protest was held against were very wrong. Who do those people think they are banning people from going to gurudwara? No one has the right to make that decision. I feel really bad for the people who have recieved the notices. Where should they go now? Mosques, Mandhirs, or Churchs? What is happening these days. Those new "so called leaders" are doing very bad things, I am from toronto and so i have recieved some details on this situation. Even without details, it's easy to understand that what the new committee is doing is very wrong. They tried to break guru ji's maryadam, they are calling police to "tame" the sangat (as if they are animals", and installing cameras without permission. If i were a member of the Windsor Guru-ghar, i would object to the cameras as well. I would feel very uncomfortable with cameras watching my every move. If they want security cameras, then place them outside, around every exit. From what i've heard, people are scared of going to the washroom because they are paranoid. This situation is getting out of hand!
I won't be surprised if our Toronto Masands have reached that gurudwara. It seems like the same things that happen here have started there. It's a shame, that people are running after power and money in such serene places like gurudwaras. The Windsor Gurudwara used to be one of the most well reputated and respected Gurudwaras of Canada...and now?
THESE MASANDS NEED TO BE STOPPED!

[nnnsingh]

What is the problem with cameras in the gurdwara. Especially where their are troublemakers. These individuals(troublemakers on both sides) later lie and say that they did nothing. IF you are not doing anything wrong ...why the fear of the cameras. The excuse that people are afraid to use the bathrooms is baloney. I highly doubt that there are any cameras in the bathroom. Honestly I have seen people be attacked in the gurdwara for being in one group or another .....so I think the cameras are a very good idea. Everyone behaves when they know they are on film.

Althougth I dont know the details if the group that "lost power" is now making trouble what options does the new committee have. Dont ban them and let them start a new fight every week until they regain power?

Obviously the judge who issued the restraining orders speaks for itself. It appears he felt that many members were troublemakers and did ban them.

IF this new committee has done a powergrab then when new elections are held they will be promptly removed.

[firpo]

First off i would like to thank all who made some very valid points in the discussion . When guru armar das ji wrote i believe 2000 or more sufa's in the guru granth sahib he said god i have no good in me you blessed me with knowledge and wisdom so i could serve the sungat" If Dr. Kooner donated 2million dollars that doesn't mean he owns the gurdwara nor did he have to.When Mahraja Ranjit Singh donated the gold for the Golden Temple it didnt make him a better sikh nor did he want the fame for it. The gurdwara will always be the sangats but if anyone threatens the safety of anyone in the congregation its the committees job to ensure there safety. i have lived in windsor for 40yrs born and raised. one member of the the new committee had his house shot at with a gun and he has 2 wonderful little girls what would happen if one of them bullets hit a child? To me i feel the Dr. Kooner followers just doesnt want to or let the new committee survive. the new committee has left a vacant seat for him all along. At the Present the Dr Kooner gang is donating a penny every time they mutha take [bow] infront of guru granth sahib. its about 25% of the sungat that is against the new committee . The worst thing of all this is just how little some of things done are. Its said that your enemy will know you far before you know them and your reputation proceeds itself, do good be good and say good the world will sing your name.
Last and most importantly i amd sorry if i hurt anyones feelings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r8rDeSf1jU

Moderator Note: Unsupported allegations and slander (edited out from this message) are not allowed. We do not allow instigation of violence as seen in this video above. Holding the Sangat hostage in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib, forcing them to listen to lectures inciting violence, is not the remedy that Guru Sahib has shown us to take. We sit in presence of Guru Granth Sahib for worship, not for politics. This message is approved as a sample of how, wisdom seems to have escaped through the back door, leaving only the brute force and politics behind, with money at the center. We have allowed this discussion due to the news. People should post facts, from both sides. Otherwise, we will be closing these two threads.

[ctm]

As a member of the Windsor Sangat, I have a huuuuge problem with the cameras.

First of all, there are cameras (multiple cameras) inside the main/prayer hall where Guru Granth Sahib Ji's Prakash is, there are cameras in the Langar hall, there are cameras in the lobby. I don't even know how many cameras there are in total. And there may even be cameras or recording devices in the women's washroom. The shoe-holding shelves in the women's washroom were recently painted a horrid colour (it's as if they wanted to conceal something).

Having cameras around the exits, as someone mentioned, makes sense. But having multiple cameras in places where people pray and do seva doesn't make any sense. Praying and seva are private things - people don't want to be seen (many prefer gupt seva).

Also, some people have problems in their homes (eg husband is atheist and doesn't want to go to Gurdwara, so wife has to sneak out of house in order to pay respect to Guru Granth Sahib Ji - these situations are real - now is this wife going to come to the Gurdwara when she knows that she's going to be video-taped and her husband can find out?). They are breaking people (torring) rather than uniting people (jorring) with the Guru.

Another problem is that this committee didn't ask ANYONE before installing cameras. They didn't hold a general member meeting and they didn't even inform the Sangat that they would install cameras. They said that a 'robber' broke open a drawer in a desk (this desk is located next to the Gurdwara entrance) and security should be increased (THAT'S ALL THEY SAID). The interesting thing is that this desk doesn't contain much money compared to the golak. Another interesting thing is that this desk contained filled out membership application forms. And now they refuse to provide the Sangat with the membership list. Who's a member/who is not a member? If application forms went missing, then there are people who think they are members, but, in reality, they aren't.

How can they be voted out if they are cancelling opposition memberships, purposely losing application forms, and making new members who support them? They're setting up a situation in which their supporters will outnumber the opposition and they will stay in power for years to come. This is a strategic take-over. Another thing is that the Gurdwara has a >$50,000 deficit because of them (most likely >$100,000 by now). Say that by some miracle, they are voted out next year, how is the deficit (which will be much greater by then) supposed to be paid?

These people have to stopped - the only option may be taking them to court and kicking them out legally somehow.

It's ironic, they call themselves Sikh (you should see the size of their Dastaars and Kirpans) - yet they don't give a hoot about Sikh values.

[nnnsingh]

The more I think about it I like the idea of cameras in the gurdwara. I hope more gurdwaras institute this policy. Quite frankly it is the only thing that will make some people act like humans instead of savages with big knives.

Your reasons for not having cameras dont hold water. Either there are or there are not cameras in the restrooms. Dont tell me that there MAY be cameras. As a member of the sangat you should not spread rumors that you cannot verify. Are you implying the reason they painted the shoe holding shelves in the washroom a "horrid color" was to conceal the cameras? Come on....you dont really believe that do you?

"Praying and seva are private things " and many people prefer gupt seva".....Do you really think that people have nothing better to do then log how many hours of seva someone has done? ........... " John Singh did 8 hours of seva this week but only 2 last week...maybe we should investigate" Yes it might be true people want to do gupt seva but I (and probably the majority of people) also prefer to go to the gurdwara in PEACE without people pulling out kirpans and pulling turbans off because you do not support the current committee or are a member of the current group in power. Once again people behave differently when they know they are being filmed.

Your example about the "athiest husband" and the sikh wife is just weird. So what if I decide to call the husband and tell him that his wife is coming to the gurdwara. This scenario is probably 10X more likely then the husband coming to look for tapes because he suspects his wife might be coming to the gurdwara. Or how about the husband just follow the wife when he wants to know where she is going.

In the setting of "factional gurdwara politics" where physical altercations with fists/kirpans are likely...the cameras are a great idea. As far as I am concerned there has not been one valid reason not to use them. In fact the opposiiton can always subpeona the tapes to show abuse by the current party.

Once again not knowing the details of the Windsor gurdwara dispute the judge issued a restraining order against many of the members of the sangat. The judge (probably a nonsikh) has no outside motive to ban somone unless there is a real indication to do so. Instigating fights is probably one reason why some members were banned.

In regards to the membership lists/applications....not something that we can discuss in detail without knowing the facts. Once again however if it was not available when the previous party was in power it seems hippocritical to ask for it now. Who can or cant be a member and who does or does not have voting rights. This is something the courts will have to decide but it is a problem everywhere....should a person that visits the gurdwara once a year have the same voting priveleges as someone that comes every week? Or how about someone that donates millions ...should they have more voting rights then somone that donates a penny? This is something only the courts will be able to decide.

As far as the new committee not having "sikh values " all I can say is that usually there is enough blame to go around. Ever hear the saying "the pot calling the kettle black".... I think it applies in this case.

[Guest]

The problem with cameras is that Sewa and Praying is supposed to be private! And is this some sort of jail that you need to put up cameras now? If you feel that the supporters are being agitated for some reason, then think deeper....no one is that stupid to create a problem just because they feel like it. If "Dr Kooner's Supporters" are trying to say something, and they are not being heard, obviously they will be mad! That doesn't mean that you can kick someone out for trying to state the facts.
And also, "firpo" had said that "If Dr. Kooner donated 2million dollars that doesn't mean he owns the gurdwara nor did he have to"...I will guarantee you that that is 2 million dollars more than you have ever donated. Do you honestly think the Gurdwara couldve gotten very far without his input...Not just his, but the entire committee along with Dr Kooner did a fabulous job with the Gurdwara in the past 16 years, so don't you think it hurts to see it being turned into this jail now?

And as far as the attacks go, I have been hearing a lot about this. But do you have proof that either Dr Kooner or his supporters have anything to do with it? I mean, have the police actually ruled out that they have done it?
All I'm trying to say is that just because you are having ongoing issues with your temple doesnt mean you can flat out blame something so low on them. Until you have proof, you can't tie the two things together.

Another question I have is that: How have they spent so much money in the past couple months? I have heard that they were asked for the balance numerous times. Could you please explain how they have gone into such a deficit in such little time?

[jsingh7]

As a part of the sangat the problem isn't that the cameras limit us or anyone from hurting someone, but it invades our privacy. Like someone mentioned, nobody owns the gurdwara. So out of a sangat of 1000, no five people have the right to make a decision that will affect everyone. A while back the first committee did bring up cameras and they asked various members of the sangat if they would be okay with cameras, the sangat said they didn't want cameras because their privacy would be invaded, right then the whole issue was dropped. When you are the president or a part of the committee of something, you have to take in mind what everybody wants. The cameras wouldn't have been a big deal if they had asked and then been installed, rather than being installed without even any notifications. These cameras were supposed to be "security" cameras, not cameras to tame the sangat. Keeping the sangat cool is the committee's job, and if people have a problem with the committee than the committee needs to stand infront of the sangat and answer their questions infront of everyone and explain their actions. That is what we have wanted all along. If the committee wants to solve this, than listen to the sangat. I as a member of the congregation say that the committee as not once approached us and/or listened to what we have to say. A few weeks ago, when a man stood up and asked why an AGM meeting has not being called, he was ignored. That man was a part of the sangat and he stood up on his own, I think I agree with him and maybe other members of the congregation agree as well. Than why was he ignored? As a committee, their job is to not only take care of the Gurdwara, but also make sure that the sangat is heard and satisfied. Why are we being ignored?

Taking into mind what FIRPO said, id like to comment on some points. No one says that Dr.Kooner owns the gurdwara. I have never heard him ever mention how much he has donated. I don't know him very well, but he has to be one of the most religous men I have seen. I know for sure that the jathedar position that is being brought up over and over, is being misunderstood. When Dr.Kooner brought the idea up I was not sure of the idea so I approached him and asked him about the whole idea. He said that the position is not directed to himself. The main idea was he wanted a Gursikh person to represent Windsor, so when any issues arose across the country, that one person could represent our city and their thoughts and/or questions on the whole situation. He said that the person could be from anywhere, but had to fit the requirements and would properly represent our city. That is the information he gave me, and if Dr.Kooner told me that was it i believed him. The whole idea is being blown out of proportion, it's being misused and misunderstood.

I'd also like to mention another thing. I live in windsor so I'm aware of the beating and shootings of the committee members homes, and that's what I'd like to comment on. These two "attacks" are being brought up over and over again in the gurdwara.Why? Nobody has the right to point fingers at someone without any investigation. If the police hasn't released any names yet, who has the right to label these guys as suspects and full out blame them in the sangat? For all we know, these attacks could just be a setup to show the other guys down. Until the cops finish their investigation, we can just assume.

As far as numbers go, from what i know, there were 300-400 out to protest against the new committee and their decisions and there were merely 40-50 people inside the gurdwara with the new committee. Is that 25% or 90%? You do the math...

[nnnsingh]

Unfortunately what I am seeing is that many members of the opposing party simply cannot handle defeat.

If the commitee was selected then they are in charge. What I suspect is that when they (the new committee ) refused to sing the tune of the "two million dollar donor" they no longer had his blessing. His disciples then unleashed their wrath.

The opposition to the cameras is primarily from the group that lost power. Reasons include everything from preventing an athiest husband knowing that the wife is going to the gurdwara to wanting to do "gupt seva". The latest excuse.. is for privacy. Someone also said they dont want to be "tamed".

Once again if you behave like a rational human beiing you have nothing to be afraid of. If you plan on doing something inappropriate...starting a fight etc etc then your actions will be caught on camera. I suspect that the judge used common sense (and possibly even video tape) to ban the troublemakers. Most people want to go to the gurdwara in peace anyone that goes to fight should be banned.

In regards to how a gurdwara is run....I would like them all to follow the rehat maryada and have gursikh committees. However in the real world the gurdwaras are run as their constitution or committee dictates. When a committee does something like install tables and chairs....or anand karaj between a sikh and nonsikh...they do so knowing that their actions are against akal takht hukamnamas and/or rehat maryada. So how should a gursikh address this ? I can defintely say the way to not address this is to pull out your kirpan and attack those that have installed the chairs/tables.

[ctm]

Seva and praying are private things. The cameras have a psychological influence - I never said anything about anyone logging the hours someone prays/does seva.

There hasn't been a single incident of kirpans being pulled out and turbans being knocked off. That is because the Sangat does not want the police to enter the Gurdwara. (But the police have already entered the Gurdwara after the 'robber' incident - thanks to the new committee.)

We the Windsor Sangat want to have a meeting with the committee to DISCUSS the Gurdwara issues. BUT THEY REFUSE TO HOLD A MEETING! They refuse to cooperate with the Sangat. People get up during the Sunday divaans to ask the committee questions (about issues that concern them) and their questions go unanswered or they're told that they should sit down/they can't speak. Then people start yelling and memberships get cancelled and trespass notices are issued. The whole problem is created by the committee. THEY REFUSE TO LISTEN TO THE SANGAT and THEY REFUSE TO ANSWER THE SANGAT'S QUESTIONS. Why can't they hold a town hall meeting with the Sangat?

And the only violent attack that occured in the Windsor Gurdwara was in December - Dr. Kooner was the target of this attack and members of the new committee were perpretrators of this attack. Strange, eh?

I don't know Dr. Kooner at all, but, as someone said, he cares about Sikhi. He ensured that the Rehat Maryada was followed properly during his years as executive committeee member. He made sure the money that the Gurdwara earned was used for the Gurdwara only (and never made its way into any committee member's pockets).