Sikhism and abortion

[5ikh]

Sikh ji,

Theodorus ji, I am a Sikh, you are a Sikh. The moral code we follow is Guru Sahib's way. We as Sikhs can't say I have a choice here because we have made a commitment to follow Guru Sahib's way. If one wants to dishonor his/her committment then yes then you have a choice. In Gurbani the following line comes, I have given my head to the True Guru and do not pay attention to public opinion. This line is telling the Sikh to follow the Guru 100%. How can we say we are Sikhs when we say my own moral code? My way of life is what the person is truly saying.

We as humans follow a moral code which we try to get in line with what we think God asks from us.

Every odd response. Theodorus ji, we don't have to think about which moral code that will be in line with what God ask from us. Because we have Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as our Guru, who will teach us and we don't need to look anywhere else. And we are Sikhs not human being. As Sikh we live for the real purpose of life. Humans live in this world and die in this world to reborn again and again.

Every religious person has a moral code that is in line with his religion.

Then you should not be saying my own moral code, because you are a Sikh and a Sikh follows the moral code sung in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Also read about other religions in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

That does not mean a religious person has no choise.

A person has a choice if he wants to dishonor his committment with Guru Sahib. Once you step on the Sikhi path then it's who you are and what you breath. The person will not turn his back on his Guru because he has given his head to him. The Guru ask for our head and nothing less. Only some are willing to do this in real life. The unfornate ones lose in this game of love and are attached to maya, which in this discussion is called choice. Whatever the path the Lord places you on is his Hukam and his doing.

His choise is the outcome of soul searching and his Guru inside.

In Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji it says countless time, without the True Guru, no one is liberated. Only by the True Guru is one attached to the lord's hem and recieves Naam. Choice well there is none for a Sikh. The soul seaching all happens with Guru Sahib grace. Any effort the human trys will be lost in vain. Only the True Guru can lead you to the Lord.

If the outcome is abortion then that is between that person and his God alone.

The outcome would be as Guru Sahib give his blessings. Abortion is murder. Contentment, Humility, compassion and true faith in the Lord is the way of the Sikh. There is no room for doubt only Divine love is in the heart of the Sikh. Abortion is the messenger of death which hangs over the womans head and the baby in the mother womb is the Lord, who is rejected in the form of self conceit. Lost in the self the mother kills the innocent child.

Public opinion doesn't come into that. And I think neither my as your opinion has any value in such a decision.

My opinion is useless, the Sikh woman who is contemplating abortion does not have a choice. Her opinion is useless as mine or anyone elses. She as a Sikh only honors her commitment. The head she has given is not hers. The head belongs the True Guru. Why do some take back the head once they have given it. Why does doubt exist in your mind. The True Guru is the only support, there is nothing else, but the True Guru. His Command rules all, his command is the Sikhs life.

Don't read me wrong I'm not an advocate for abortion, I'm an advocate for choise.

Choice is only for those who live in self conceit. There is no liberation in choice. The True Guru is not seen by choice.

I also agree with you that there are numerous other solutions besides abortion if the mother cannot take care for the child. I also believe that everybody has a moral code and specially relious persons.

What you sow is what you reap. Again why has everyone forgetten contentment. A person can have the moral code he desires. The only moral code that will be accpet is the moral code Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji sings night and day.

What ever a person decides he or she has to live with his/her decision. I also think that the decision need not only be the womans. It takes two to make new life. And perhaps there are other solutions within the family. But when a decision has to be made abortion should be one of the choises too.

The ones that have the True Guru only follow. The True Guru has made the decision for them. Choice is only for those who are without the True Guru and anything they do is in vain.

[perrysingh]

Well, I never said that hunting was "fun". Theodorus, do not put words in my mouth. I never once used the word "fun" in any of my sentences. I said it was a healthy exersize of the mind and body. Perhaps you and Ishna are not familiar with brown bears. They are a dangerous animal. Any time a hunter goes after a bear, he is risking his life. When we are in the forest, we are in their domain. Bears can weigh up to 1200 pounds and run up to 45 mph. They climb trees so you cannot hide in one. They are incredibly large and powerful animals with razor sharp claws. They are not affected by most handgun rounds. They are only affected by high power rifle rounds and even then, they do not usually stop a bear at all. Countless bear hunters have been killed over time because the bear simply does not stop. It will bleed to death later, but only after killing the hunter and running several miles.
Hunting is an honorable venture when done against an animal that can fight back and when it is done in the animal's domain. It is an exersize that has been practiced by our own Gurus. It is healthy and good. It is masculine and it is courageous. When one is hunting a Tiger or Bear, it is not like hunting a bird or rabbit. Hunting is an exersize of the mind and body and builds character in a young man and brings out his ability to fight fear. I realize that some of you will not relate to this. That's OK. Guru Gobindh Singh and Guru Harigobind participated in hunts and so did the likes of Hari Singh Nalwa. This anti-hunting sentiment is a creation of the modern age we live in, but it has nothing to do with Sikhism or our history. And does not have anything to do with the Guru Granth Sahibh. Ishna keeps invoking peices of it, but clearly the Gurus are not referring to animals and are referencing humans. Either way, hunting the way I do it, and the way the Gurus did is honorable and is nothing I should be ashamed of. It is an honorable endevour that only one with courage is capable of.

[Lee Douglas]

First of all, it troubles me very much that you refer to an unborn baby as a fetus, rather than a baby. They are babies. Let's be clear about that.

Perry Singh Ji,

Yes clarity lets have some of that in what is always going to be an emotive topic.

Is it correct to call a sunflower seed a sunflower, or a hen egg a chicken? The correct word for the unborn baby of a mammal is a fetus, so let us indeed be clear. The proper word to use IS fetus. To call a fetus a baby is an emotive trick, in philosopy we call call this falacy 'appeal to emtion'. Now you can of course disagree with this, you would be 100% wrong, but you can of course disagree.

Let us now talk of murder. To murder something means to kill for no reason a member of your own speices. So the killing of a cow for food is not murder. The killing of bacteria by an injection is similary not murder.

So is the killing of a human fetus murder?

Is a fetus at the stage at which it is leagel to abort a sentiant human being? No it is not, the brain has not yet developed for a sense of 'Self' to take place, nor has the spinal colloum, nor the nervouse system. At this stage a fetus is not capable of thinking nor feeling. This is simply not murder, again any attempt to call it such is the fallacy known as 'appeal to emotion'.

Having said all of that my personal preferance is pro-choice, although it does leave a sour taste I realise that this stems from emotion rather than rationality.

[Theodorus]

5ikh ji,

You are telling me that God gave us intelligence, reason and the possibility of choise just to say "I give you all these things but you are not allowed to use them as I will tell you what to do" ?
I do not think so.
Off course SGGS is our Guide. But as I see it that is at a very personal level, Which means that whatever you will read in SGGS to guide you does not neccesaraly apply for others. So while for you Abortion might be the wrong choise it might be the right choise for somebody else. It is not for you or me to judge.

[Theodorus]

perrysingh ji,

Well, I never said that hunting was "fun". Theodorus, do not put words in my mouth. I never once used the word "fun" in any of my sentences.

I did not put words into your mouth, I didn't quote you I used your words and clearly added the word fun between brackets. So the equasion is mine.

Sports = Fun

You might not agree with me as you state:

I said it was a healthy exersize of the mind and body.

Which Sports is too.
and then you state:

Hunting is an honorable venture when done against an animal that can fight back and when it is done in the animal's domain.

Well to me hunting (in actually killing animals) is only allowed if
1/ You or others are threathened by the animal.
(when it comes in your domain not the other way around)
2/ You need the animal for food.

Bears can weigh up to 1200 pounds and run up to 45 mph. They climb trees so you cannot hide in one. They are incredibly large and powerful animals with razor sharp claws. They are not affected by most handgun rounds. They are only affected by high power rifle rounds and even then, they do not usually stop a bear at all. Countless bear hunters have been killed over time because the bear simply does not stop. It will bleed to death later, but only after killing the hunter and running several miles.

I very well know what a bear can do. If you really want to train you courage, try bow and arrow ;-)
I think it is really terrible to have such a magnificent animal suffer because the hunters lack the skill of a swift killing.

There are many other ways to train you skills (builds character in a young man and brings out his ability to fight fear) without killing animals.

This anti-hunting sentiment is a creation of the modern age we live in,

Yes you might be true so I do not judge what our Guru's did in their time, I do judge you for doing it in our time. Specially in our time you need not kill to build character and bring out your ability to fight fear. Take a camera instead or your rifle and show me pictures taken of bears, tigers, lions etc. from close by taken by you and I will applaud your character and your ability to fight fear.

[5ikh]

5ikh ji,

You are telling me that God gave us intelligence, reason and the possibility of choise just to say "I give you all these things but you are not allowed to use them as I will tell you what to do" ?
I do not think so.

The intelligence, which you speak of is maya. A person can use there intelligence for whatever they choose. The intelligence a person has is limited. Over and over we are told to follow the True Guru. The reason is because we only can understand, gain the true intellect, through the True Guru. Following a limited intellect keeps on learning and trying to reason, but will not find the True Guru; The Truth. Only one way a person attains the True Guru and is if the True Guru blesses that person. Here are two panktis of different shabads. I will provide the link to the whole shabad below the panktis. Please read the whole shabad for a better understanding.

mnu mwry Dwqu mir jwie ]
man maarae dhhaath mar jaae ||
When someone kills and subdues his own mind, his wandering nature is also subdued.
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=475

cMcl miq iqAwig Bau BMjnu pwieAw eyk sbid ilv lwgI ]
cha(n)chal math thiaag bho bha(n)jan paaeiaa eaek sabadh liv laagee ||
Forsaking my fickle intellect, I have found God, the Destroyer of fear; I am lovingly attuned to the One Word, the Shabad.
http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=4409

In the above Guru Sahib says clearly to abondon the intellect. It can't be said much clearer than that.

Off course SGGS is our Guide. But as I see it that is at a very personal level, Which means that whatever you will read in SGGS to guide you does not neccesaraly apply for others. So while for you Abortion might be the wrong choise it might be the right choise for somebody else. It is not for you or me to judge.

There is one Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. There is one destination follow Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. If person A reads Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and completely devotes himself to Guru Sahib he will get the same message as person B who has devoted himself, just as person A, to Guru Sahib. The key here is to know that Truth never changes. Right at the beginning of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji we are told this. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji does not teach one person one concept and then teaches another which is contrary to the first teaching to the second person. There is not one single contradiction in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. And Theodorus ji, if you believe there is then please start a new thread and we can discuss and the sangat here can clear your doubts. What applies to one Sikh applies to another.

Following the True Guru abortion is not a choice. Giving your head to the True Guru, abortion is not a choice. As I have said before choice is for those who don’t follow the True Guru and will abandon the virtues, of contentment, humility, compassion, and Divine love, for self-conceit. To commit this type of murder is showing clearly those virtues don’t exist in the person.

[perrysingh]

Theodorus,

I am quite confused. On one hand you say that hunting is not a character building event and on the other hand, if I send you pictures with one of our kills, you will applaud me for having courage? Well, which is it? By the way, I do not hunt tigers or any large cats. They are too difficult to track down. I know some people that do go after Cougars, but I am not one of them.
It is your opinion only that one should have to need to eat the meat in order to hunt. What the Guru's did in their time is still valid in today's time. The Guru's were timeless beings. Perhaps you are not aware of this. Like I said, this anti-hunting "save the whales before humans" phenomenon is a product of our modern age we live in. Not all things modern make sense. How is it that we are hell bent on saving animal life, yet refuse to call a fetus a baby?
A fetus is not a piece of dead meat. It is only a matter of opinion that it cannot think or use it's brain. We do not know this for a fact. What we do know however is that once all systems are present in a unborn baby (fetus), it can feel pain. It has a heart that beats. A heart that stops when it is aborted/murdered.
Just as you modern folk judge me for hunting in the tradition of our Gurus, I judge you modern folk for allowing and condoning the killing of babies. Human babies. I judge you for putting animals before humans. I judge you for putting women's rights before the right of a baby to live and be born. God decides who is born and who dies. Nobody gave that right to us, including women when they decide to kill their babies. Just as you judge me, I judge you.

[himmat_singh]

Sat Sri Akal,

Well to me hunting (in actually killing animals) is only allowed if
1/ You or others are threathened by the animal.
(when it comes in your domain not the other way around)
2/ You need the animal for food.

The reasons you give are the only reasons I would merit. People have hunted, do hunt and will hunt for sport alone, but this to me seems nothing but self-satisfaction. There are countless sports that allow one to exercise body and mind without harming other creatures.

*************************************************
As for abortion, there are going to be some medical conditions where the mother is in danger if the pregnancy is continued. I would support the continuation of the mother's life, rather than the risk of both dying anyway. She is there, is living, is known and needs as much support as the foetus.

Also when it is known as a fact that the foetus is genetically defective in such a way that the child when born will be mentally disabled or severely physically disabled and will require support throughout life to survive AND will still not have any real quality of life, I think it is quite reasonable to terminate the pregnancy if it is early on, such as in the first trimester. Terminating because the child's sex is not favourable to the parents, is out of order, but I appreciate why people do this. I wouldn't support them at all; many in Punjab are now doing this

Abortion is a very personal matter, and I don't think it helps when religion tries to involve itself in the matter, trying to make people feel guilty about it. As long as the parents are not using it as late alternative to contraception, or to be selective in terms of gender, religions should leave them alone to do what they elect to do. Parents generally do not look forward to killing their offspring , and the foetuses are terminated quite early, so it not really murder at all. They generally do it for sensible, considered reasons, and quite probably feel bad about it, without religions making them feel yet worse. If they do not proceed, because of adherence to religious dictats, it is not the religion's preachers who will be dealing with raising the child, eg if the mother dies because of some anticipated and known complication, or when the child is severely deformed and it needs continuous support.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

[Theodorus]

perrysingh ji,

I am quite confused. On one hand you say that hunting is not a character building event and on the other hand, if I send you pictures with one of our kills, you will applaud me for having courage? Well, which is it?

Sorry for the confusion. I did mean to take pictures of the live animals in the wild INSTEAD of killing them. I think it is called Picture Hunting (so if you insist to call yourself a hunter you can). And yes it does prove your courage. The closer the picture the braver.

It is your opinion only that one should have to need to eat the meat in order to hunt. What the Guru's did in their time is still valid in today's time. The Guru's were timeless beings. Perhaps you are not aware of this.

No I'm fully aware of the fact that the Guru's are (timeless cannot be in the past!!!) timeless beings. That doesn't mean we (the rest of humanity) are and neither is time itself. I do not know if you have noticed but the world has changed since our Guru's walked it. If every able person on this world today would kill only one bear this year then next year there wouldn't be any bears left (not one!!!). The same goes for every big huntable animal on the world (yes including the wale). All that would be left would be some furrs in front of the fireplace and some stuffed heads on the wall for the next generation to enjoy and after that ......nothing.
Nature, as God's creation, deserves our respect. We should not eradicate it. We should admire it and sustain it (if possible) for the next generations to enjoy.
So if you need the meat to survive, Please (hunt,) kill and eat. We are the top of the FOOD chain. I do prefer breeding animals for consumption though. We are not meant to destroy what God has created.

[Yugrajveer Singh Chauhan]

""As for abortion, there are going to be some medical conditions where the mother is in danger if the pregnancy is continued. I would support the continuation of the mother's life, rather than the risk of both dying anyway. She is there, is living, is known and needs as much support as the foetus.

Also when it is known as a fact that the foetus is genetically defective in such a way that the child when born will be mentally disabled or severely physically disabled and will require support throughout life to survive AND will still not have any real quality of life, I think it is quite reasonable to terminate the pregnancy if it is early on, such as in the first trimester. Terminating because the child's sex is not favourable to the parents, is out of order, but I appreciate why people do this. I wouldn't support them at all; many in Punjab are now doing this ""

What himmat singh said above is logical and understandable.

Otherwise I fully agree with all the posts of perrysingh on this topic. There is no justification to abortion.... it is abnormal, inhuman, unnatural and sinful.