Khalistan, a reality or a shambles?

[VeeruS]

Does this mean that the US also should not exist prior to giving the black man the right to vote?

At least the US has improved and now all citizens have right to vote. Today, the US fights for democracy. But why even support a country that would be starting out with no rights for certain people to vote?

Nice way to dodge the issue, you tend divert the topic whenever challenged with a bit logic, a very typical trait.

Challenged with a bit logic? Logic is what's missing in this whole concept of religion-based discrimination.

Where is the bias?

Bias is in religion-based discrimination. It's the bias that forces people to give people preference based on what religion they follow or whether or not they are following any religion at all.

It's a reflection of bias when you are admitted into colleges based on your religious status.

A saint simply would not discriminate, period.

Let's say I am being interviewed for a job and you happened to be in the interview panel and somehow, you convey to that you would hire me if I decided to grow my hair and start wearing turban. This would not inspire me at all to grow my hair and start wearing turban because I know it's wrong to discriminate. Of course, in the US I could sue for discriminating based on religion. But even if I could not sue, it would not inspire me at all because I know that what I have is already better as I would never ever use someone's religious status to discriminate. This is what they meant when saints preached equality of all mankind. If I were inspired by someone biased, I would also become a biased and it would only give birth to more bias in society.

Just like you think that the US is great as there is no religious discrimination against you, a Sikh nation or Sikhs institutions could only be great if there were no discrimination at all.

Saints don't come out of religion; instead religion comes out of Saints. Unfortunately, religion usually gets into wrong hands and beats the whole purpose of religion.

[NSJ]

Veeru ji

Where is the bias? It exists in your imagination only.You have failed so far to show us the bias.

Quite a few religions do not allow persons from other religions to enter their places of worship.
On the other hand sikh Gurudwaras are open to all. Guru sahib introduced sangat and pangat.
That practice is still continuing. .

Sir, non-keshdhari are not allowed to have Anand Karj ceremony at many Gurdwaras, women are not allowed to do kirtan at Harimandir Sahib. Both are specific examples of bias.

You have also stated non-Khalsa are not Sikhs (bias) with no basis to support that claim in SGGS. Becuase some other religions practice bias is no reason for Sikhs to do so as well. Political direction from SGPC is irrelevant for Sikhs living in democracies.

Also, Dasam Guru may have said “Khalsa mairo roop hai khas (special)” but he didn’t say “Khalsa mairo roop hai kalla (only)”. The fanatics need to stop twisting the words of the Guru to fit their bias.

You write against practicing a religion and then you write about saints.We need to keep in mind if there is no religion, there will be no saints also.You are contradicting yourself. It is a religion that produces saints.

Sir, you forget that Guru Nanak is a shining example that you don’t need religion to connect to the divine or be a saint. In my opinion he would not approve of leadership provided by many mainstream Sikh leaders.

As far as Khalistan goes, people not having right to vote is more than enough reason for Khalistan not to exist.

VeeruS,

Does this mean that the US also should not exist prior to giving the black man the right to vote?

Sir, you compare the lot of slaves to free people. No one asked slaves for their opinion on the creation of United States. In my opinion the current US constitution is very much in line with Sikh principles. The country fought a civil war to correct the mistake of slavery.

On the other hand, free people/ ordinary Sikhs are being asked to support Khalistan where they will be looked upon as second class citizens if they are not Khalsa. The world does not need another theocracy poorly disguised as democracy (how can a state claim to be the protector of a particular religion’s values and in the same breath claim to be unbiased).

[Vikramjit Singh]

In my opinion its time people give up old hatreds and conflicts. They lead to nowhere.

There is no denying that crimes were committed in the past by both the Indian government and Sikh militants. Unfortunately most of the people who commited those crimes were never punished.

We live in an a new era of human history. The world has gotten smaller and people are moving away from religion as they are exposed to new ideas and progressive thinking.

Religion should not stand as a barrier in the way of progressive societies. Time and again it has been seen that religious based societies eventually digress into the arena of fanaticism and darkness.

It would be best for religions like Sikhism to focus more on the spiritual essesnce of its scriptures rather then on petty conflicts. These teaching can be used to help to uplift humanity and society rather then define rules of how to conform or how to label non-believers as Patit's (sinners).

The Khalistan issue should be buried under the carpet. Yes, at a point of time it seemed a necessity, but the world has moved forward. The unfortunate massacres of Sikhs in November 1984 should not be used as a platform for continuous India bashing or pushing the Khalistan agenda.

Many Indian Sikhs have made peace with India and wish to move forward. Indian society is very diverse and has many problems that need to be addressed. The delivery of justice to the victims of state terrorism is one of these many issues. Indian democracy is still not mature enough. Corruption and nepotism rule the roost, This is the real crux of the problem, which Indians, which includes Indian Sikhs, need to address.

Most of the support for Khalistan remains in a minority of the Sikh diaspora which is unfortunately out of touch and sometimes uses the anti-India bias to keep its own flock together. This is indeed unfortunate.

[lakwinder singh]

Veeru ji

If there is no religion there will be no saints.Purpose of a religion is to help mankind to get rid
of cycle of births and deaths.

Minorities need their own land in whatever one may call it to safeguard their identity, religion
and culture. There were millions of kabir panthis in India after Kabir ji.Where are they now? All
assimilated in majority community.

Same fate awaits sikhs in the long run.In punjab children in cities speak Hindi as a sign of looking
more civilized. Why have they forgotten their mother tongue? This is an human rights issue as well.

Have you ever heard that native Americans are given reserve areas in uSA.What for is that? So that
they can save their heritage.

[lakwinder singh]

Sir, non-keshdhari are not allowed to have Anand Karj ceremony at many Gurdwaras, women are not allowed to do kirtan at Harimandir Sahib. Both are specific examples of bias.

You have also stated non-Khalsa are not Sikhs (bias) with no basis to support that claim in SGGS. Becuase some other religions practice bias is no reason for Sikhs to do so as well. Political direction from SGPC is irrelevant for Sikhs living in democracies.

Also, Dasam Guru may have said “Khalsa mairo roop hai khas (special)” but he didn’t say “Khalsa mairo roop hai kalla (only)”. The fanatics need to stop twisting the words of the Guru to fit their bias.

I have heard that in some Gurudwaras non sikhs are not allowed to have anand karaj.But i have not heard about non keshadhari hailing from sikhism are also not also not permitted.Can you cite a specific case instead of general statement.Do not mix up non sikhs with non keshadharis hailing from sikh parents.

Kirtan is performed in Harmandir sahib by Ragi jathas who are doing this job only. Most of those are employed by sGPC and are duty bound.Have you a list how many ragi jathas women have?If so please furnish. I saw charhdi kala jatha singhs doing kirtan from harmandir sahib.Again this is their main job.

I wish you had read SGGS ji before making statements.Gurbani time and again advises us that Guru ji is bohith( a ship that carries sikhs across).Then it says that people who lack Gurmantra are unfortunate ones.We should know how gurumantra is given.

ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੀਣਸ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੰਤ ਜਨਮ ਭ੍ਰਸਟਣਹ ॥
ਕੂਕਰਹ ਸੂਕਰਹ ਗਰਧਭਹ ਕਾਕਹ ਸਰਪਨਹ ਤੁਲਿ ਖਲਹ ॥੩੩॥
That mortal who lacks the Gurumantra — cursed and contaminated is his life.
That blockhead is just a dog, a pig, a jackass, a crow, a snake ||33||

(SGGS ang 1357)

So sikhi is total submission to Gurus all the way.
.
It is being stated here that those who have strayed from sikh path are our brothers and we should not look down upon them. No one has belittled them.If you think so, cite the post.

It is akal takhat that looks maryada issues all over and not sGPC.

Sir, you forget that Guru Nanak is a shining example that you don’t need religion to connect to the divine or be a saint. In my opinion he would not approve of leadership provided by many mainstream Sikh leaders.

Guru Nanak Dev ji condemned false practices that had crept in society in the name of religion.He did not condemn religion.Religion should not be judged on the basis of acts of a few individuals.

Sir, you compare the lot of slaves to free people. No one asked slaves for their opinion on the creation of United States. In my opinion the current US constitution is very much in line with Sikh principles. The country fought a civil war to correct the mistake of slavery.

On the other hand, free people/ ordinary Sikhs are being asked to support Khalistan where they will be looked upon as second class citizens if they are not Khalsa. The world does not need another theocracy poorly disguised as democracy (how can a state claim to be the protector of a particular religion’s values and in the same breath claim to be unbiased).

You should keep in mind that America was a land of native Americans. It was taken over from them. They were herded into clusters. That is why they are given freedom to manage their affairs, preserve their heritage there.

[jammasterb]

The simple point was that there was a time when slaves and women were not allowed to vote. The only people who could vote were landowners. That meant if you were landless and belonged to the majority race, you still could not vote.

If the US can be applauded and looked up to for extending voting rights and being more inclusive in its democracy as time went on, then why can't the same courtesy be extended to a Khalistan? Any new nation has to go through its growing pains. If the US was squashed in its infancy just because of not allowing a majority of its citizens to vote, we would not have the powerful nation it is today.

[NSJ]

Sir, non-keshdhari are not allowed to have Anand Karj ceremony at many Gurdwaras, women are not allowed to do kirtan at Harimandir Sahib. Both are specific examples of bias.

You have also stated non-Khalsa are not Sikhs (bias) with no basis to support that claim in SGGS. Becuase some other religions practice bias is no reason for Sikhs to do so as well. Political direction from SGPC is irrelevant for Sikhs living in democracies.

Also, Dasam Guru may have said “Khalsa mairo roop hai khas (special)” but he didn’t say “Khalsa mairo roop hai kalla (only)”. The fanatics need to stop twisting the words of the Guru to fit their bias.

I have heard that in some Gurudwaras non sikhs are not allowed to have anand karaj.But i have not heard about non keshadhari hailing from sikhism are also not also not permitted.Can you cite a specific case instead of general statement.Do not mix up non sikhs with non keshadharis hailing from sikh parents.

Kirtan is performed in Harmandir sahib by Ragi jathas who are doing this job only. Most of those are employed by sGPC and are duty bound.Have you a list how many ragi jathas women have?If so please furnish. I saw charhdi kala jatha singhs doing kirtan from harmandir sahib.Again this is their main job.

I wish you had read SGGS ji before making statements.Gurbani time and again advises us that Guru ji is bohith( a ship that carries sikhs across).Then it says that people who lack Gurmantra are unfortunate ones.We should know how gurumantra is given.

ਗੁਰ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਹੀਣਸ੍ਯ੍ਯ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਣੀ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੰਤ ਜਨਮ ਭ੍ਰਸਟਣਹ ॥
ਕੂਕਰਹ ਸੂਕਰਹ ਗਰਧਭਹ ਕਾਕਹ ਸਰਪਨਹ ਤੁਲਿ ਖਲਹ ॥੩੩॥
That mortal who lacks the Gurumantra — cursed and contaminated is his life.
That blockhead is just a dog, a pig, a jackass, a crow, a snake ||33||

(SGGS ang 1357)

So sikhi is total submission to Gurus all the way.
.
It is being stated here that those who have strayed from sikh path are our brothers and we should not look down upon them. No one has belittled them.If you think so, cite the post.

It is akal takhat that looks maryada issues all over and not sGPC.

Sir, you forget that Guru Nanak is a shining example that you don’t need religion to connect to the divine or be a saint. In my opinion he would not approve of leadership provided by many mainstream Sikh leaders.

Guru Nanak Dev ji condemned false practices that had crept in society in the name of religion.He did not condemn religion.Religion should not be judged on the basis of acts of a few individuals.

Sir, you compare the lot of slaves to free people. No one asked slaves for their opinion on the creation of United States. In my opinion the current US constitution is very much in line with Sikh principles. The country fought a civil war to correct the mistake of slavery.

On the other hand, free people/ ordinary Sikhs are being asked to support Khalistan where they will be looked upon as second class citizens if they are not Khalsa. The world does not need another theocracy poorly disguised as democracy (how can a state claim to be the protector of a particular religion’s values and in the same breath claim to be unbiased).

You should keep in mind that America was a land of native Americans. It was taken over from them. They were herded into clusters. That is why they are given freedom to manage their affairs, preserve their heritage there.

Sikh submits to the will of God (Sat-Guru). Sat-Guru has no religion. It’s up to each person’s wisdom to determine what constitutes submission to the will. SGGS helps us on that journey. You have your opinion on what is complete submission I have mine. But I don't present my opinion to others as "Guru's will". In my understanding of SGGS any human can have Anand Karj because Sat-Guru is not biased so I try not to be.

Please explain who gave guru-mantra to Guru Nanak, Moses, Jesus or for that matter the first human being to achieve enlightenment. In my understanding of SGGS Sat-Guru is not bound by any particular rituals.

I have the utmost respect for Khalsa who work on conquering their mind and do not go around judging other people or quote bani out of context.

On the other hand there are some finger-wagging-holier-than-thou-Khalsa, who want to imprison people in a theocracy called Khalistan to enforce “the Guru’s will” (read their own narrow minded biased world view). In my opinion it is the latter Khalsa and their followers that drive away the new generation from their rich heritage and alienate people from other cultures. I cite your post above as an example of abusing a quote from the bani (SGGS Ang 1357) to put down people who don't share your opinions.

Putting Native Americans on reservations has not brought freedom or restored their culture. I suggest that you visit some of these reservations to experience first-hand the “glow of freedom” they are experiencing. In my view it has brought casinos, alcoholism, isolation and other social ills.

By the way I don't see much difference in who is running the Akal Takhat, the SGPC or the Akali Dal these days.

[VeeruS]

The simple point was that there was a time when slaves and women were not allowed to vote. The only people who could vote were landowners. That meant if you were landless and belonged to the majority race, you still could not vote.

If the US can be applauded and looked up to for extending voting rights and being more inclusive in its democracy as time went on, then why can't the same courtesy be extended to a Khalistan? Any new nation has to go through its growing pains. If the US was squashed in its infancy just because of not allowing a majority of its citizens to vote, we would not have the powerful nation it is today.

We have evolved and with time and we know that discrimination is wrong. Then there is no reason for us to support a country where discrimination will be legal.

If there is no religion there will be no saints. Purpose of a religion is to help mankind to get rid
of cycle of births and deaths.

It is possible for someone to become a saint after following baani of saints. However, once bias creeps in, all of the learning from baani becomes useless and nobody will ever break the cycle of birth/death holding bias because bias will never let anybody achieve the spiritual state of a saint. Generally a religion creates bias and goes against the baani.

Minorities need their own land in whatever one may call it to safeguard their identity, religion
and culture. There were millions of kabir panthis in India after Kabir ji.Where are they now? All
assimilated in majority community.

I am not sure if Sikhism is in danger in India. Gurdwaras are all over India, Pakistan and even Bangladesh. So, Sikhs were established in a small country, you would have very limited access to the rest of the Gurdwaras in India and Pakistan. Kabir panthis probably never establish themselves but we do know that Kabir Sahib is a very well respected Saint in India. But the bottom line is that you are asking to establish a country where majority of the land belongs to the people you deny any rights at all, which must not happen.

Same fate awaits sikhs in the long run.In punjab children in cities speak Hindi as a sign of looking
more civilized. Why have they forgotten their mother tongue? This is an human rights issue as well.

Why is language so important to someone whose goal is break the cycle of life and death? I have heard that Guru Nanak Dev Ji's baani was originally written in Devnagri. Human-rights of all people are violated all over India. Human-rigths violation does not discriminate against people's religion, either.

Have you ever heard that native Americans are given reserve areas in uSA.What for is that? So that
they can save their heritage.

As it makes sense to me, it's probably because there was some kind of agreement between Whites and Native Americans. But Sikhs are not native Indians. Indians here refers to citizens of the country India. Sikhs never really had possession of entire India.

[lakwinder singh]

NSG wrote
It’s up to each person’s wisdom to determine what constitutes submission to the will. SGGS helps us on that journey. You have your opinion on what is complete submission I have mine.

Sikhs consider SGGS as Guru eternal as it is edict from Guru Gobind singh ji.They follow its teachings wholly and do not pick and choose.You seem to have a different standard.There are other denominations also, like sindhis, who say they follow Guru Granth sahib ji but have their own life style as they also believe in Hindu idols. No one stops them from doing this as they write their religion as Hindus.

In my understanding of SGGS any human can have Anand Karj because Sat-Guru is not biased so I try not to be

Why to go to Gurudwara sahib for anand karaj if one does not have belief in sikhism.There are marriage halls where one can go for such events.Gurudwaras are for sangat to draw inspiration and are not picnic spots.

Please explain who gave guru-mantra to Guru Nanak, Moses, Jesus or for that matter the first human being to achieve enlightenment. In my understanding of SGGS Sat-Guru is not bound by any particular rituals.

WE do not equate ourselves to Guru Nanak sahib. We are his sikhs. He was sent to earth by God and we consider no difference between Him and God. I am not qualified to comment on Jesus and Moses as i have not read their teachings.
At the same time i respect them as men of God as they have millions of followers.

I have the utmost respect for Khalsa who work on conquering their mind and do not go around judging other people or quote bani out of context.

The quote was from SGGS ji and hence not out of context.There are many more like this.It was not directed on any individual.

By the way I don't see much difference in who is running the Akal Takhat, the SGPC or the Akali Dal these days.

Akal takhat is an institution and we as sikhs follow it as it guides us as Guru panth.Guru Gobind singh had given his Sikhs jog and jugti.So jog is in SGGS ji and jugti is from Guru panth that tells us how to achieve that Jog.

[lakwinder singh]

Why is language so important to someone whose goal is break the cycle of life and death? I have heard that Guru Nanak Dev Ji's baani was originally written in Devnagri. Human-rights of all people are violated all over India. Human-rigths violation does not discriminate against people's religion, either.

Why is it important for some to justify an act of cheating by some to disown their language. Where are ethics now as you always talk of sikhs having bias.

When first census of India took place majority of Hindus of Punjab declared their language as Hindi whereas they did not know how to speak one line of Hindi.Pandit Nehru commented on this in Indian parlaiment saying that he had observed people lying but never on such a scale that they would disown their own language.

So now we learn that Guru Nanak sahib wrote his bani in Devnagri? Devnagri is a script and Punjabi did not have that script. You may have heard many things such as some people say Sikhs are hindus but that does not become a fact.

You agree that human rights violation is there.Why should a democracy violate human rights of any of its citizen? Is it not a bias?

Why are perpetrators of Sikh genocide of 1984 are not brought to book so far?Rather they are awarded with plush jobs.
Is it not a bias? Why are sikhs who have completed their sentence are still languishing in jails. Presently a sikh is on hunger strike for the last 20 days asking for their release. Why he has to do this to awaken a Govt. Is it not a bias.

Anna Hazare or Ramdev goes on hunger strike for two or three days , the whole country is galvanized.But this poor sikh sitting there for 20 days, there is no mention of it in Indian newspapers.So this is latest news of bias towards a minority who made maximum sacrifices in freedom struggle.