Chairs in Diwan Hall..!!!

Discussions on various aspects of Sikhi

Re: Chairs in Diwan Hall..!!!

Postby vikramjit gurufateh singh » Fri Aug 29, 2008 9:12 pm

Fateh Ji,

Do the Indian Emigration or the Immigration Authorities confiscate one’s ability to squat on the floor? Why is it that people who sit on the floor and do Sangath in India want to sit on chairs and do Sangath when they go overseas? What is the need to change the rules?

Muslims do not change the rules of their ibaadat be it in an Islamic Country or the Western World.

Seems some of us follow the adage ‘ Ganga gaye toh Gangaram aur Jamuna gaye toh Jamunadas’! We try to follow the local custom and compromise on our own customs.

‘Channa je chaliya Pardes no bhuli apni boli teh pana bhes ( if you are going overseas do not forget your language and dress – customs).

Guru Rakha
kabeer kookar ram ko mutheea maero nao ||
Kabeer, I am the Lord's dog; Moti is my name.
galae hamarae jaevaree jeh khinchai theh jao ||74||
There is a chain around my neck; wherever I am pulled, I go. ||74||
vikramjit gurufateh singh
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Re: Chairs in Diwan Hall..!!!

Postby drdln » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:57 am

lakwinder singh wrote:Yes there were chairs in Diwan hall in New York when immigrant sikhs arrived in 1960s and aped western traditions out of ignorance.


Out of ignorance of what. They came from Punjab when more people were wearing turbans than today. And most of them were educated professionals. The committee that recommended chairs were most respectable sikh intellectuals [like Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha] and leaders sikhs ever had, IMHO.
"The real purpose of religion is spirituality.
Religious wars are creation of fanatics!"
--Science,Religion& Spirituality
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... &x=18&y=18
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Re: Chairs in Diwan Hall..!!!

Postby drdln » Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:07 am

[quote="vikramjit gurufateh singh"Seems some of us follow the adage ‘ Ganga gaye toh Gangaram aur Jamuna gaye toh Jamunadas’! We try to follow the local custom and compromise on our own customs.

‘Channa je chaliya Pardes no bhuli apni boli teh pana bhes ( if you are going overseas do not forget your language and dress – customs)[/quote]

I wonder why people in Punjab wear suit and nectie and speake english instead of wearing pajama and dhoti and speake punjabi only instead of foreign language! Why not start a movement against such tradition back home so that it catches up abroad.
"The real purpose of religion is spirituality.
Religious wars are creation of fanatics!"
--Science,Religion& Spirituality
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... &x=18&y=18
drdln
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Re: Chairs in Diwan Hall..!!!

Postby vikramjit gurufateh singh » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:54 am

Fateh Ji,

In this song bhes is our identity. At least this is what I take it to be and what what was in my mind when I posted this song.

We've digressed from the subject. I feel Sikhs who sit on ground in India while doing Sangaht and Pangath should have no problem of sitting on the ground overseas.

I get the feeling that to get assimilated in their new surroundings some people adopt local rules.

Guru Rakha
kabeer kookar ram ko mutheea maero nao ||
Kabeer, I am the Lord's dog; Moti is my name.
galae hamarae jaevaree jeh khinchai theh jao ||74||
There is a chain around my neck; wherever I am pulled, I go. ||74||
vikramjit gurufateh singh
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Re: Chairs in Diwan Hall..!!!

Postby lakwinder singh » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:25 am

<<<<Out of ignorance of what. They came from Punjab when more people were wearing turbans than today. And most of them were educated professionals. The committee that recommended chairs were most respectable sikh intellectuals [like Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha] and leaders sikhs ever had, IMHO.>>>

There were sikhs already on west coast and they had Gurudwara in stockron built in 1915.They had chairs in Stockton too.Sikhs coming in 1960s followed them.

Education does not mean that they were aware of Gurmat principles as well.Neither do permission by a few people as mentioned by you does make it Gurmat.These were wrong decisions that is why chairs had to go.
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Re: Chairs in Diwan Hall..!!!

Postby drdln » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:29 pm

lakwinder singh wrote:<<<<Out of ignorance of what. They came from Punjab when more people were wearing turbans than today. And most of them were educated professionals. The committee that recommended chairs were most respectable sikh intellectuals [like Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha] and leaders sikhs ever had, IMHO.>>>

There were sikhs already on west coast and they had Gurudwara in stockron built in 1915.They had chairs in Stockton too.Sikhs coming in 1960s followed them.
Education does not mean that they were aware of Gurmat principles as well.Neither do permission by a few people as mentioned by you does make it Gurmat.These were wrong decisions that is why chairs had to go.


Is there any sense or logic to assume that sikhs on east coast followed earlier farmers on west coast. Many including me didn't even know about stockton and chairs. The pattern of lack of logic and disrespect for sikh intellectuals and education and throwing words like gurmat, gurmukh, IMHO, is the road to [url]fanaticism[/url]. And fanatic is always right...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=794

I hate to be negative but the fact is, we have become a community of complainers and self-appointed gate keepers. We like to blame others rather than correcting our-faults. we fight in gurdwaras. we fight over appearance. We fight over chairs in gurdwaras and insist on using punjabi only instead of mixing with English whether the youth come to gurdwara or not and so on. we don't want to represent our community, if kirpan is not allowed. We argue over gurbani interpretation rather than listening to others views and then give our views. We instead throw punches on the other person because it doesn't fit in our line of thinking. If nothing works then we declare our selves as gurmukhs and others as manmukhs or us deeply religious and other atheists.....

I don't know what happened to humility our gurus taught: Nanak neech kahe vichar and hum nahin chaange bura nahi koi...

I have shared my views, some of which are published. And as usual, have nothing but respect for differing views.
"The real purpose of religion is spirituality.
Religious wars are creation of fanatics!"
--Science,Religion& Spirituality
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... &x=18&y=18
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Re: Chairs in Diwan Hall..!!!

Postby lakwinder singh » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:28 pm

There is no fight over chairs.Chairs in diwan hall is a history of past and confined to archives.Chairs are not going to come back however hard one may aspire.One has to live principles of sikhism Sangat and pangat.

If one does not like that one can build one's own Gurudwara and put chairs there.
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Re: Chairs in Diwan Hall..!!!

Postby lakwinder singh » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:33 pm

<<<<hate to be negative but the fact is, we have become a community of complainers and self-appointed gate keepers. We like to blame others rather than correcting our-faults. we fight in gurdwaras. we fight over appearance. We fight over chairs in gurdwaras and insist on using punjabi only instead of mixing with English whether the youth come to gurdwara or not and so on. we don't want to represent our community, if kirpan is not allowed. We argue over gurbani interpretation rather than listening to others views and then give our views. We instead throw punches on the other person because it doesn't fit in our line of thinking. If nothing works then we declare our selves as gurmukhs and others as manmukhs or us deeply religious and other atheists.....>>>>>

Principles of sikhism are regulated by Akal takhat a supreme seat of sikhs.There are certain protocols involved.As sikhs we are to abide by that.We are not permitted tom change those protocols.

I hope you agree with this.Those who disagree can form their own sects.
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Re: Chairs in Diwan Hall..!!!

Postby vikramjit gurufateh singh » Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:10 pm

Fateh Ji,

I hate to be negative but the fact is, we have become a community of complainers and self-appointed gate keepers. We like to blame others rather than correcting our-faults. we fight in gurdwaras. we fight over appearance. We fight over chairs in gurdwaras and insist on using punjabi only instead of mixing with English whether the youth come to gurdwara or not and so on. we don't want to represent our community, if kirpan is not allowed. We argue over gurbani interpretation rather than listening to others views and then give our views. We instead throw punches on the other person because it doesn't fit in our line of thinking. If nothing works then we declare our selves as gurmukhs and others as manmukhs or us deeply religious and other atheists.....


I go to Guru Ghar regularly and what is being projected is just a hyped version. In Guru Ghar we all do Sangath and Pangath together. There may be some people on both sides who try to enforce their views on others but Saad Sangath has always and will always be a balancing factor. In Guru Ghar Gutkas are available in all languages : Gurmukhi, Hindi, English. No one stands outside Gurudwaras asking people if they wear Kirpans or if they have partaken Amrit. It’s the people who try to use Gurbani to justify their transgressions that cause problems. I think if this Forum itself in ‘audited’ one would realize how hollow this punching allegation is against Sikhs. Fanatic, taalibization of Sikhi ..... why?

Gurmukh is a title that Sangath confers on you. As for Manmukh if a Sikh feels a person has the traits of a Manmukh he or she will not call the person a Manmukh but try to keep away from him or her.

Guru Rakha
kabeer kookar ram ko mutheea maero nao ||
Kabeer, I am the Lord's dog; Moti is my name.
galae hamarae jaevaree jeh khinchai theh jao ||74||
There is a chain around my neck; wherever I am pulled, I go. ||74||
vikramjit gurufateh singh
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Posts: 1457
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:07 am

Re: Chairs in Diwan Hall..!!!

Postby drdln » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:51 pm

vikramjit gurufateh singh wrote:Gurmukh is a title that Sangath confers on you. As for Manmukh if a Sikh feels a person has the traits of a Manmukh ...


Gurmukh is spiritually/God oriented, Manmukh is self oriented/fanatic, IMHO.
"The real purpose of religion is spirituality.
Religious wars are creation of fanatics!"
--Science,Religion& Spirituality
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... &x=18&y=18
drdln
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Posts: 523
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