I am Losing Faith in Sikhi and God

Discussions on various aspects of Sikhi

Re: I am Losing Faith in Sikhi and God

Postby AS Khalsa » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:19 am

Nihal Singh Kanakpuria wrote:AS Khalsa Ji,

Seems like you have missed a few responses , if possible can u pls respond to my post, would like to hear your views.

-Nihal


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!
Nihal Singh Ji, I did not reply to your post because I was unable to fault any of your answers. Thanks for not being ambiguous! My apologies for the late reply.
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Re: I am Losing Faith in Sikhi and God

Postby AS Khalsa » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:23 am

kjsinghhyd wrote:Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh,

I am replying late so many might have pointed out same things as mine. Sorry for repeating.

1 - According to Sikhism, and in fact every faith, one achieves salvation by 'obeying God' or submitting to him/accepting his will. Forgive me for saying, but this makes God sound like some egomaniacal dictator in that he only rewards people who suck up to him. Why does God require us to do this if he is all-loving?


Everyone is free to interpret God like they want to. But no one connects to how Guru describes God.

2 - The main objective of a Sikh's life is to become 'one' with God. And yet paradoxically, Sikhism states that we are already 'one' with God. If we've already reached the destination, then what is the point of leading a religious life? What are we supposed to strive towards?


There is a difference between being in an organization or being devoted to an org!

3 - I fail to understand the idea that God is 'inside' of us. What does that even mean? Inside of what exactly? He can't be inside our bodies as he is not physical and scientists have yet to detect anything that suggests a physical presence of him within us. Is he within our souls (But our souls aren't physical either, so how is he inside of those)? If so, please elaborate.


Where are your thoughts? Where is your mind? Science doesn't know if it exists or if it is physical?

4 - If all paths lead to God, then why was it necessary to create Sikhism, if other religions already offer a path to salvation? In other words, if being a Muslim, who cuts his hair, can lead to liberation, then why bother going to the effort of keeping kes? If the response to this is Sikhism is the only path that leads to God, then I am definitely leaving the faith, as acceptance of others is what inclined me towards it.


All religions are different explanations and paths for your journey to God, you stick with what you get first or understand the best! Sikhi for Guru Nanak was all about spreading the love!

5 - Several miracles are supposed to have taken place in Sikhi and indeed all religions. Why is it that 'miracles' have only taken place centuries ago when there were no cameras and why are there so many contradictions with regards to miracles in Sikhi? - we have on the one hand, Guru Hargobind Sahib, whos heavily reprimanded Baba Atal Rai for performing the miracle of bringing his playmate back to life, and then on the other hand we have Guru Gobind Singh resurrecting the Panj Piare after beheading them, and Baba Deep Singh fighting with his head in his hand.


A miracle is an inexplicable event which amazes most people, but they leave it as it is, not trying to understand what happened. A Sikh gets the Truth out of the miracle.

6 - In Sikhi, we keep our Kes because we are supposedly forbidden to change the God given form in any way. Therefore, according to Sikhism, people who are born with severe physical defects are prohibited from recieving surgery to alter this as it would be changing their god-given form. Is this not hypocrisy?


It is all up to the individual. You have been given guidelines. Your faith will take you places.

7 - In Sikhism, we believe everything that happens is God's will and we should accept what happens unconditionally, as it is part of God's will. By that logic, because Operation Bluestar happened, should we not accept it and not complain about it, because everything that happens is God's will is it not? Even Guru Arjan Dev Ji said his killing was God's will. So why did Guru Hargobind raise his sword against the Mughals if they were simply enacting God's will?


Indian constitution guarantees justice as effect of any cause e.g. crime. Bluestar was a crime and there has been no justice. We are protesting that the system is broken. Guru Hargobind Sahib raised his swords because Mughals were going from bad to worse. And we can't even understand the importance of Shaheedi of Guru Arjan. It has much more complex and deep implications!

8 - Does God grant mukhta to good people who do not believe in him? Would God condemn me to another 84 million rounds of reincarnation for not believing in him in the face of an incredible lack of evidence?


I haven't met a single person who doesn't believe in God. Non believer would be a guy going mad saying the world is unreal, he is trapped in the Matrix and jump from a roof to try waking up!


Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Thank you for replying, but your answers are very short. Could I have more detail please, especially with regards to your fourth point.
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Re: I am Losing Faith in Sikhi and God

Postby swarn bains » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:18 pm

i would like to answer your 4th question my way by learning from sggs and my guru
there are two type of religions in the world
1. religion whose guide is human code of conduct. they are christian, muslim budhist and jews.
they do not know the divine path. human code of conduct which we were born with and lost it as soon as the world wind the wealth touched us. they try to get back to it and that is the end of it.
these religions have never felt the divine touch. so they do not know that there is something as such. the source which provides the divine touch is not within their domain. that is why they are so successful spreading the religions. although budhists are very close to hinduism and they follow the similar path as hindus but in essence they also follow the human code of conduct. budhist do meditation but how many of the mystics have achieved divine state?
the next set of religions are those which follow the divine path.
these are hindu, sufi and sikh. in these three religions the touchstone which is the essence of divine knowledge is the murshad or the guru. although it is very difficult to find a guru who has divine knowledge. the guru can only take the follower to his own level if the student has to go any further he has to do his own effort. the guru is a touchstone. it turns the iron into gold by the touch. that touch is missing from the top religions. in essence the muslims hate the sufies but when it comes to get the benefit then they say they are muslims but they are not. the sufies do not follow muhammad or tadam but they follow the murshad. in sikhism and hinduism the paras is the guru. what has happened that the granth sahib is nominated as the guru. it has everything mentioned in it to be divine but it is like learning yourself from the book or the real teacher. that is the difference between sggs and the real guru. I read bhagwat geeta and ramaain but there is very little mention of the guru and guidance of the guru there. it is very well explained in upnishads like sggs. in skhism and hinduism the real guru is hard to find. at the same time we feel that the chriistians and muslims are floursihing so much, so we also try to follow their way of worship and we get lost in copying from the others. there is every step mentioned in sggs to be divine. but it is still the same thing like learning from the book or from the teacher. if the light is burning then it can enlighten the surroundings but if it is not burning then it cannot do it. if u or anyone else thinks that sggs has that light burning then, i have question for them! tell me; how many of those who do path everyday or 24 hours a day have achieved divine knowledge. hard evidence. not like so and so saint, because the saints are penny a pound. the sufies do not follow anyone else but the murshad. but they are very few in number. they do not try to imitate as well. the hindus and sikhs both try to follow the flock and forget their path. a pricy diamond changes the lousy diamond into good diamond. that is the touchstone affect. the divine knowledge is also transferred from the guru to the sewak telepathically like paras or diamond or the light of the lamp which enlightens the dark. there is no other way to become divine although human beings have started the religions. the religions are based on the performance of one individual and the people get togather and find some faults in the previous religion and start a reliogion. in that flaock there is one sincere person but the rest of them are politicians and followers of code of conduct. they have not understood the divine path. that is where they hijack to religion to. they do not know anybetter and they cannot guide any better that where the religion ends up. i am getting lost so i stop i would be interested to hear from as khalsa jee.
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Re: I am Losing Faith in Sikhi and God

Postby kjsinghhyd » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:00 pm

If all paths lead to God, then why was it necessary to create Sikhism, if other religions already offer a path to salvation? In other words, if being a Muslim, who cuts his hair, can lead to liberation, then why bother going to the effort of keeping kes? If the response to this is Sikhism is the only path that leads to God, then I am definitely leaving the faith, as acceptance of others is what inclined me towards it.

All religions are different explanations and paths for your journey to God, you stick with what you get first or understand the best! Sikhi for Guru Nanak was all about spreading the love!


People who have attained enlightenment and detachment, try and guide others. But there is no one path for all times and all places. You are lucky to be born in the house of Guru Nanak (as they would say in Punjab). If you meet Guru, what would you ask Him? Would you ask for His Guidance? Or question Him if what he is doing is necessary? Guru has asked us to keep uncut hair. Why Muslims have not been asked to keep uncut hair? I don't know. Most Sikhs don't know why to keep hair. When we keep hair, we start realizing the meaning and message of Guru. But there is more than what you see on the surface. All paths lead to liberation by Truth and Discipline. Maybe a Muslim guy would see hair as gift of Allah and start keeping it uncut. Today we have Sikhi, after 300 years some new religion might start. What is important that people realize the importance of human life and seek Darshan of Akaal Purakh.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa
Waheguru ji ki Fateh
--
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕਾ ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ
ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫ਼ਤਿਹ
Kanwaljit Singh

ਖ਼ਾਲਸਾ ਸੋਇ ਕਰੇ ਨਿਤ ਜੰਗ - Khalsa is the One who always battles the vices within
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Re: I am Losing Faith in Sikhi and God

Postby VeeruS » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:34 am

Claims like all paths lead liberation and we see The Creator following a path are ridiculous claims.

Just even imagine The Creator. He created and creates everything in this world. He even created what we consider bad in this world.

Obviously, our way of thinking is very different from that of The Creator. He couldn't have created anything that He could not tolerate and people of religion on the other hand can not even stand people of other religions or people who are little different from them.

A religious path creates bias, therefore, can not lead anyone to The Creator. What we call liberation is non-specific term. For most of us, it's just a state of self-satisfaction.
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Re: I am Losing Faith in Sikhi and God

Postby Romesh Kumar » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:35 am

VeeruS wrote:Claims like all paths lead liberation and we see The Creator following a path are ridiculous claims.

Just even imagine The Creator. He created and creates everything in this world. He even created what we consider bad in this world.

Obviously, our way of thinking is very different from that of The Creator. He couldn't have created anything that He could not tolerate and people of religion on the other hand can not even stand people of other religions or people who are little different from them.

A religious path creates bias, therefore, can not lead anyone to The Creator. What we call liberation is non-specific term. For most of us, it's just a state of self-satisfaction.


Very well said.
Thanks a lot.
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Re: I am Losing Faith in Sikhi and God

Postby Nihal Singh Kanakpuria » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:28 am

VeeruS wrote:A religious path creates bias, therefore, can not lead anyone to The Creator. What we call liberation is non-specific term. For most of us, it's just a state of self-satisfaction.


I don't know your source of bias against religion but how is a religious path different from a spiritual path ?, doesn't the spiritual path have its own set parameters ?.
Giving the option to select the set parameters would please a physical human, nothing about that pleases a thirsty soul.

How can spirituality that is egoistically boosting exclusiveness's even be considered a path of God, as you In effect show lack of acceptance to others path, simply coz its defined. Sikhism considers this also a path of God.

Btw, Satisfaction is a physical state, it has nothing to do with liberation, nor theoretically and not even remotely similar in concept.

-Nihal
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Re: I am Losing Faith in Sikhi and God

Postby VeeruS » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:25 am

Nihal Singh Kanakpuria wrote:
VeeruS wrote:A religious path creates bias, therefore, can not lead anyone to The Creator. What we call liberation is non-specific term. For most of us, it's just a state of self-satisfaction.


I don't know your source of bias against religion but how is a religious path different from a spiritual path ?, doesn't the spiritual path have its own set parameters ?.
Giving the option to select the set parameters would please a physical human, nothing about that pleases a thirsty soul.

How can spirituality that is egoistically boosting exclusiveness's even be considered a path of God, as you In effect show lack of acceptance to others path, simply coz its defined. Sikhism considers this also a path of God.

Btw, Satisfaction is a physical state, it has nothing to do with liberation, nor theoretically and not even remotely similar in concept.

-Nihal


First the satisfaction we are talking about here is the satisfaction of our mind and soul.

As far as liberation goes, we will not and can not know what exactly liberation is until and unless we have been liberated. My assumption is that the real liberation refers to what we call being united with The Lord (The Creator), spiritually.

But what really is being united with The Creator? I don't see how we could be united with The Creator without being at least spiritually as great as Him.

I am not even sure if it's possible, but if possible at all, I don't see how we could be spiritually as great as The Creator being having the spiritual ability to accept everything in this world "as is".

I personally can't see how we could be biased against other people and still claim to have the ability to accept everything "as is" and be united with The Creator.

It really doesn't make sense to me that when we are biased people, we can still claim to be united with The Creator and claim to have been liberated.

Yes, there is spiritual part of every religion but the end result is that religion causes bias as people tend to create religious communities following a religion and then they start discriminating against others. It could be that they simply associate with the people of same background or it could be that they marry within their own community or it could be that they discriminate against people not belonging to their own community at work or in school.

Therefore, I just don't that people can do all of this and still claim to be one with The Creator.

I am pretty sure there are people who are one with The Creator, meaning liberated, but for most of us, what we consider liberation is simply a satisfaction of our own mind. Even religious terrorists think that they will be united with The Lord. Then what else could it be other than a satisfaction of their own mind?
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Re: I am Losing Faith in Sikhi and God

Postby Romesh Kumar » Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:25 am

swarn bains wrote:the religions are based on the performance of one individual and the people get togather and find some faults in the previous religion and start a reliogion. in that flaock there is one sincere person but the rest of them are politicians and followers of code of conduct. they have not understood the divine path. that is where they hijack to religion to.


This is also process of evolution. All different religions in the world are outcome of socio-political circumstances of different times and have played an important role in shaping different societies at those times. All the religions have been founded during 'might is right era'. Their codes of conduct were required in and suited to that era. In civilized world of today constitutions of different lands are serving the purpose of scriptures.Culture, customs,traditions of the place have major contribution in founding religions.In today's world religion serves as socio-political platform and identity.
Even founder of any religion has not claimed that non-followers of the religion he founded are second class human beings.
A faith is not a faith if it is not blind. It is better to trust in God and do the right. More and more digging into religion/s will expose more and more truth about how the religion/s have emblinded the people to the extent that followers have lost natural human traits and have become something else with not even remote resemblance with 'humanity'.
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Re: I am Losing Faith in Sikhi and God

Postby Nihal Singh Kanakpuria » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:30 pm

VeeruS,

you haven't answered my question but posted your general perception about all religious ppl which is logically incorrect.

Your views are biased against religion, leaning towards being only spiritual, how are you different from religious people who are biased ? Aren't both the sides displaying same lack of acceptability to others views and paths ?

I am not going to respond any further on this post, don't really want to hijack AS Khalsa ji's post


-Nihal
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