How many times was Guru Gobind Singh Ji married and why?

[Romesh Kumar]

I need to know whether Guru Gobind Singh Ji was married to one woman or more and why because my husband who is having an affair with another woman had this to say when I confronted him "Even Guru Gobind Singh had married so many times". I don't know how true is this but I need to give him a proper answer and the right answer too.

He also said that how can the bani go into the water to make it amrit....????

Pls help.

cj ji,
Please ask following questions from your husband.
1. Can he equate his personality or character to that of Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji ?
2. Can he sacrifice three generations for any Sikh cause or for any other cause of righteousness in front of his eyes ?
If he says no, then tell him the proverb that 'devils should not quote from scriptures'.

[Serjinder Singh]

Mata Sundri ji was very much alive even decades after tenth guru ji passed away.

The following is the text of a letter (hukamnama) sent by Mata Sundri to Sikhs in 1723 while Mata Jitoji passed away in 1700 while at Anandpur where a Gurdwara exists at the place of Mata Jitoji's cremation. Mata Sundri ji lived and passed away in Delhi.

http://www.panjabdigilib.org/webuser/se ... rched=W3GX

From the book ‘Nisaan te Hukamname’ by Shamsher Singh Ashok. The text of the Hukamnama(letter) from Mata Sundri ji on page 100 of this book:

100
Hukamnam Mata Sundri ji
Ik Oankar satgurparsad
Sarbat sangat guru rakhega.
Ik Oankar satguru
Sri Mata ji di agya hai Bhai chain singh bhai Bhopat Singh Bhai Sangat singh Bhai Alam Singh Bhai Mani singh sarbat khalsa akal purkh ji ka guru rakhaiga. Guru guru japna. Janam sawarna. Bhai Balpal tumare pas aye hain. Bhai Sango naal unka lekha hai. So Sango bhi tumare pas awta hai. Sarbat khalsa waheguru ji ka hai. Jo kuchh vajbi gal hovey so kar devni. Riayat iksi ki nahin krnI. Tumare sabh manorth poorey hongey. Dharam niaon karke faisla kr devna. Nihaal hoye bahurdi hovegi. Katko 19, Samat 1780. Satran 13.

Translation of the message:
This is an order from Sri Mata ji. Bhai chain singh, bhai Bhopat singh, Bhai Sangat Singh, Bhai Alam singh, Bhai Mani singh, the entire Khalsa of Akal Purkh ji. Guru shall protect you. Chant Guru Guru your life will be fruitful. Bhai Balpal has come to you. He has an account with Bhai Sango. So Sango is also coming to you. The entire Khalsa is of Waheguru. Whatever is appropriate you should get decided. Shouldn’t show any favour to anybody. All your wishes shall be fulfilled. Decision should be based on Dharam and Justice. We are happy and shall take care of you hereafter. Date: 19 Katak, Sambat 1780 (4 November 1723). Lines on the letter 13.

Humbly
Serjinder Singh

[deepharn]

This is most humbly, mainly in response to the two postings of Serjinder Singh Ji on this thread - dated Oct 17 and Oct 19 - and to some others who love the word 'freedom' and 'behove' and use these only to contradict established sikh norms/practices.

Let me fist make some observations on the two posts and then give my humble opinion -

Observations
1.In my earlier response dated Oct 17, I was humbly seeking to know whether, as Serjinder Singh had observed "that the reading of Guru Granth had begun on the passing away of Mata Jito Ji ..... " whether Guru Granth existed then and did the practice of reading Guru Granth exist then - I have yet to hear a learned response to that.

2. Serjinder Singh Ji says that the marriage took place in 1674 and Guru ka Lahore was created because of the events leading to martrydom of ninth Guru - But my dear Sir, Kasmiri Pandits came to Ninth Guru in 1675 and martyrdom took place in 1675. There seems to be some inconsistency here.

3. Serjinder Singh Ji says that Mata Jito Ji came with sugar crystals when Amrit was being praepared in 1699. But Sir, Dr Trilochan Singh, famous sikh historian in his famous sikh books does not agree with that, especially when he explains in detail the amrit ceremony.

4. The times of Guru Gobind Singh was very turbulent and he was surrounded by adverse rulers who had their historians.

5. We all know the following - very few sikh hsistorical records exist; sikh history has not been properly recorded; many vested interests have played with sikh history; there is shortage of sikh scholars and historians, etc.

6. The pressure on academicains is intense to publish and be visible - therefore more contradictory or controversial a publication, easier to get tenure or promotion in academics. In sikh religion, any one can publish anything, and get away with mild punishment but not withdrawal of published work, unfortunately, and we all know this.

Humble Opinion
1.When a well known, dedicated, devoted, hard working and respected sikh scholar, having converted from hinduism, Professor sahib Singh has done monumental research, lived till 1977, had access to many sikh historical records and has said that Guru Gobind Singh ji was married once, why are we trying to rediscover the wheel.

2. If we have found some enlightening truth, which will change the course of sikhi, why dont we have the courage to send it for publication in scholarly sikh journals which are refereed.

3. There is difference on oral naration in a gurdwara and posting on sikhnet - postings have life long shelf life and can become documents of research/reference a few years later. There has to be some self censored responsibility while postings - just a few of us are making postings but look at the readership already about 917 views have been made of this thread. Many of the viewers are young children, some onlookers, some seekers and all innocent learners. Is it fair on our part to feed them with information which is not authanticated.

4. Why only when some controversial thing is posted, do we feel compelled to contribute and that also taking the contrary view to established sikh norms. Rather, on the elite website of the sikhs, should we not expect that the benefit of doubt will go in favour of established norms and popularly accepted beliefs.

5. Freedom is a relative term and is described by the circumstance and enviroinment - freedom on the stage in a Gurudwara or in a journal article is different from freedom on the website - one has the freedom to ask the neighbour anything but the neighbour also has the freedom to react as he/she then deems fit. Even in the modern world, many a author know the limits of freedom and surely the learned readers/viewers are aware of the meaning of freedom.

6 Behove - What should behove on a elite sikh website, which is a pride of sikh community and is regularly frequented by young and old, new seekers and old seasoned participants, is different from what behoves on a personal blog. Moreover, does it behove to - repeatedly and mostly post contradictory views to established norms?

Most Humbly
Thanks

[Khalsa.Fauj.13]

Mata Jito Ji (properly known as 'Mata Ajeet Kaur' ji) was the wife of Guru Gobind Singh ji (1666-1708), the daughter of Bhai Ram Saran, a Kumarav Khatri of Bijvara, in present-day Hoshiarpur district of the Punjab. She was married to Guru Gobind Singh at Anandpur on 4 April 1684. The father-in-law had desired that the bridegroom should come at the head of a marriage party to Lahore where the ceremony should be performed with due dignity.

The fateful events leading to the martyrdom of Guru Tegh Bahadur ji intervened, and in the changed circumstances it was not possible for the young Guru to go to Lahore. Therefore a temporary encampment was raised near the village of Basantgarh, 10 km north of Anandpur, and named Guru ka Lahore where the nuptials were held on 23 Har 1734 Bk/21 June 1684. (Mata Jito ji became Mata Sundari ji after marriage as was the custom in Punjabi families.) Mata Jito was Mata Sundar Kaur also known as Mata Sundari Ji. Mata Sundari Ji was not the second wife of Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Saahib.

Many historians try to incorrectly suggest Guru Gobind Singh ji of committing polygamy (having more than one wife) and of having 3 wives the mistake arises in separation of Mata Sundri and Mata Jito as being 2 different people, and of Mata Sahib Kaur being married to Guru Gobind Singh.

Mata Sahib Kaur, who was called 'Sahib Devan' before receiving Amrit, was the Spiritual Mother of the Khalsa, however some historians have mistakenly confused Mata Sahib Kaur as having been married to Guru Gobind Singh.

Mata Sahib Devan's father wished her daughter to marry Guru Gobind Singh, however as the Guru was already married, her father asked the Guru's permission for Mata Sahib Devan to live in the Guru's house as Sikh and serve the Guru and his family. Therefore, Mata Sahib Devan was never married and never had a physical relationship with the Guru. As a consequence of not marrying Mata Sahib Devan and her not being able to have children, Guru Gobind Singh made her the "Mother of the Khalsa". Up to this day in history, all Sikhs who take Amrit consider Mata Sahib Kaur as their (spiritual) Mother, and Guru Gobind Singh as their (spiritual) Father.

Four sons were born to Mata Jito ji/Sundari ji:

* Baba Ajit Singh ji,
* Baba Jujhar Singh ji (14 March 1691),
* Baba Zorawar Singh ji (17 November 1696) and
* Baba Fateh Singh ji (25 February 1699).

Mata ji received Amrit at the 1699 Vaisaakhi Amrit Sanchaar and adopted the name 'Ajeet Kaur'. Mata Sundari ji raised her four sons on the martyrdom tales of their grandfather Guru Tegh Bahadur ji and great great grandfather Guru Arjan Dev ji. She told them a Sikh never runs from a battle field. It was because of her teachings that all her four sons attained Martyrdom. Baba Ajit Singh the oldest, Baba Jujhar Singh ji when was only 15 years old fighting with Mughals at Chamkaur, Baba Zorawar Singh ji and Baba Fateh Singh ji who were only 9 and 6 years old at the hands of Wazir Khan, Mughal Governor of Sarhind, when the young Sahibzades would not convert to Islam. Consequent upon the evacuation of Anandpur on the night of 5-6 December 1705, Mata Sundari ji, along with Mata Sahib Devan (who adopted the name 'Sahib Kaur' after receiving Amrit), was escorted by Bhai Mani Singh ji to Delhi.

She rejoined Guru Gobind Singh in 1706 at Talvandi Sabo, where she heard the news of the martyrdom of her sons also of the death of her aged mother-in-law, Mata Gujari Kaur ji. She went back to stay at Delhi while Guru Gobind Singh left Talvandi Sabo for the South. At Delhi, Mata Sundari ji adopted a young boy whom she named Ajit Singh because of his resemblance to her own late son, Sahibzada Ajit Singh ji. After the passing away of Guru Gobind Singh ji at Nanded in October 1708, the Sikhs looked up to her for guidance. She appointed Bhai Mani Singh ji to manage the sacred shrines at Amritsar and also commissioned him to collect the writings of Guru Gobind Singh ji. She also issued under her own seal and authority hukamnamas to sangats. The hukamnamas since discovered and published bear dates between 12 October 1717 and 10 August 1730.

Mata Sundari ji was disappointed in her adopted son, Ajit Singh. Emperor Bahadur Shah treated him as the successor of Guru Gobind Singh ji, called him to his court and gave him a robe of honour in September 1710. This went to his head and he started living in style as a courtier. He grew arrogant and haughty even towards Mata Sundari who disowned him, and migrated to Mathura. Ajit Singh was later convicted for murder and was put to death on 18 January 1725. Mata Sundari ji returned to live in Delhi where she ,died in 1747. A memorial in her honour stands in the compound of Gurdwara Bala Sahib, New Delhi.

[himmat_singh]

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

Keeping all matters in perspective, leads one to establish a balanced view.
This is more likely to be based on fact, or truth, after objective assessments. When one uses only one’s own experiences to establish a view, it will be personal. It is susceptible to subjective assessments, rumours, and superstition.

Historians conduct extensive research and present their findings with detailed bibliographies. It is then up to anybody interested in the publication to either rely upon the reputation of the historian, or verify the quoted original source. If there is still doubt, then further research can be conducted, with a view to finding contrary evidence. If there is no contrary evidence to be found, then society generally accepts findings, until such a time that new evidence comes to the fore. This is how study of history functions.

If somebody is making a study into lives of past forms of Guru ji, and the history of events in development of Sikhi, then he/she is free to make research , but ought not to rely solely upon posts in discussion forums.

If one does so, then one does so at one’s own peril. It would be like a historian doing research into Sikhi relying solely upon a rundown of history from stories retold by inhabitants in one village, and relying upon it just because it is in Punjab. The locals might all be of different faiths or sects. No-one outside the village would trust the claimed history as a true complete history of all events in Sikhi. Nevertheless it would make very interesting reading material, but mainly to the ones in the village, or looking to move to the village.

Sat Sri Akal

[himmat_singh]

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

The impact of opinions expressed in discussion forums, upon readers of posts, is one item that concerns Deepharn ji.

Discussion forums ought to kept in perspective. The Sikhnet site, along with many other web-sites devoted to Sikh matters, is very extensive. The Sikhnet site has many, many useful pages, that can all provide the keen learner many resources that will enable them to make meaningful research. It also provides links to sister sites, and external resources. All of these are available to the learner who does not wish to be influenced by opinions which are not necessarily substantiated.

When one reads posts on “discussion” forums, then one should be very aware that the posts are opinions. They are just that, and only that. If some reader then wishes to rely upon the posts, then it the responsibility of that reader to satisfy themselves as of the opinion that has been expressed.

Sat Sri Akal

[himmat_singh]

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

Deepharn ji has queried why some threads bring more responses than others

The majority of readers of religious discussion forums will not be looking in depth at the posts of others as the guidance that determines their conclusions about a religion. Substantially, they will be people who are already with very fixed preconceptions, and are looking for supportive posts that further strengthen their preconceptions. Regular users will be on the forum as it is a source of interest, not because it takes them closer to God. They are social animals as much as the next human is, and they have similar levels of ego. They themselves will not be open to change. When they come across something contrary, their mind reacts adversely. They feel threatened, especially if there are a number of contrary posts. Doubts arise, and in some cases anger arises, which their mind must resolve. So they either counter-attack, or they abandon the forum. There will be very few on forums, with the inner peace and contentment that allows them to simply note others expressions and sentiments, and then continue happily, absorbed in their devotion to the Lord. When they get to that level, they will not respond, or may not even read the posts on forums.

In my humble opinion, this explains why controversy is so evident in forums. It is the controversy that maintains the interest in them, and not the content. The factual content is all available elsewhere.

Sat Sri Akal

[Serjinder Singh]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Deepharan ji wrote: Observations
1.In my earlier response dated Oct 17, I was humbly seeking to know whether, as Serjinder Singh had observed "that the reading of Guru Granth had begun on the passing away of Mata Jito Ji ..... " whether Guru Granth existed then and did the practice of reading Guru Granth exist then - I have yet to hear a learned response to that.

2. Serjinder Singh Ji says that the marriage took place in 1674 and Guru ka Lahore was created because of the events leading to martrydom of ninth Guru - But my dear Sir, Kasmiri Pandits came to Ninth Guru in 1675 and martyrdom took place in 1675. There seems to be some inconsistency here.

Response: 1. Numerous recensions (birs, copies) of Adi Granth existed from the time of first compilation of Adi Granth by fifth Guru ji up to the early days of tenth Guru ji. Sikh scribes would copy from earlier copies and get the existing Guru ji to put their approval of accuracy and authenticity by writing Mool Mantar (called Nissan Guru ji)on the copy. The Sikhs would keep this copy in their homes or Dharamsalas and obviously would read then not just store these. This is how the Sikhs would learn Gurbani and the message within. Carrying out Sehaj Paath or Adi Granth was the norm.

Even today some of the birs from period prior to tenth Guru ji exist (Gatha Sri Adi Granth, by Prof. Piar Singh, published by Guru Nanak Dev University Amritsar, 1992.): For instance, bir at Dera Ram Kishen with 7th Guruji's Nissan on it written in 1653 AD.; Boorey Sandhu's bir written in 1754; Dehradun wali bir written in 1659; Kahngarh wali bir written in 1661. Sikh Referenc Library Bir written in 1665 and so on there another dozen birs still available that were written prior to tenth Guru ji.

2. In my two posts I had given references to marriage of Mata Jitoji where in both cases the date of marriage is June 1677 and not 1974. In one post the year of betrothal is given as 1673. Betrothal is not marriage, it is 'engagement'. Engagement took place in 1673 but after ninth Guru ji's martyrdom in 1675, two years later in 1677 it was decided to hold wedding at Guru Ka Lahore encampment near Anandpur rather than take a marriage party to Lahore.

It is my humble submission that I have only attempted to give approprite quotations from the documents accessible to me and tried to avoid my personal opinion not based on historical records.

Humbly
Serjinder Singh

[lakwinder singh]

Aad beer had been in possession of Dhir mal. They did not allow anyone to take this beer.It is generally believed that the beer at kartarpur sahib is not original and Dr Piar singh testifies to that in his book " Gatha sri aad Granth".

[deepharn]

This is my most humble response to serjinder singh ji. I am also responding to himmat singh ji here.

Post by serjinder singh ji
Sir, we all know that only some copies of Birs were available. But my question was rather very simple - Did Guru Granth exist then, as you had claimed in your ealier post, and did the practice of doing sehaj Path on the death/passing away exist then?

1. My understanding is that "Guru Granth" did not exist in 1700 and only part of Adi Granth existed then, without the inclusion of compositions of Ninth Master. Compositions of Ninth master were added in 1705 at Damdama sahib and Guruship was granted only in 1708, as we all know.

2. After the installation of Adi Granth in the Harmandir sahib, did the practice of doing sehaj path on death/passing away exist - i have not read in any well researched sikh history book that after the Jyoti Jot of Fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth and ninth Guru, of Baba Budha ji, Bhai Gurdas Ji, Mata Ganga ji and other mothers/wives of Sikh Gurus, that Sehaj Paths were organised on their departure. So Sir, I am very curious to know as to what is your source and how wll researched or authentic it is that you prefferd to invoke and share that aspect on the thread which did not even seek such details.

3. Sir, most humbly, I am also curious to know that limited documents that you and Piara singh Padam have access to - were they not available to Prof. Sahib Singh or Dr Trilochan singh, famous, well respected researchers and acclaimed scholars? or have they been discovered/invented afterwards ?

4. According to my opinion, Sir, again most humbly, though Serjinder Singh Ji claims that he has avoided personal claims, in writing his posts to a simple question by a lady in distress, the material in the post seems utterly motivated, confusing and contrary to well establised and accepted sikh history.

super humbly

Thanks
Deepharn
ਸੰਤ ਸਰਨਿ ਜੋ ਜਨੁ ਪਰੈ ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਉਧਰਨਹਾਰ ॥
ਸੰਤ ਕੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਬਹੁਰਿ ਅਵਤਾਰ
The person who seeks the shelter of the saints, that person is saved.
By slandering the saints, O Nanak the mortal is born again and again
- Sukhmani Sahib


Multiple posts by himmat singh ji
This is in response to multiple though shortened posts of Himmat Singh Ji.

According to my understanding, opinion on publicly read forums also carry a responsibility. By taking shelter sometimes under the phrase of freedom or opinion or words like behove, one cannot absolve oneself of responsibility that one is on the communication highway.

In my opinion, there are some aspects which have already been well researched and accepted respectfully by the devotees and certain things which are considered as sacrosanct or axioms which are best left respectfully alone in any relationship, platform or discussion.

In contrast, there are many many issues which beg answers from seekers and one can happily participate on those threads without hurting the sentiments of devoted individuals and without challenging the well established norms. Many of the philosphical issues need multiple opinions and surprisingly those are left unattended.

On behove, I do not understand, may be beacuse of my own limitations, that on this elite and respected sikh website, why some participants suddenly appear and aggressively pursue and passionately challenge every established norm of sikh religion. And when some body points out that this is unfair, words like behove are invoked. How come every type of behaviour only behoves the challenger of establised norms and no behavior behoves the defendent?

Incidentally, I am eagerly waiting for the promised blog by Himmat Singh Ji.
Thanks