Was Guru Nanak God?

[GSdhillon]

For centuries people have used religion for their own ends. I should say misused.
Anyone who asks is Guru Nanak was God, unfortunately does not understand Gurbani.

In Gurbani Gurus state that God does not come into physical existance (but resides in all living beings and everywhere). God has no physical attributes. God does not take birth and so on.

So who was Guru Nanak: Read Japji and in Sach Khand (stage of highest spirituality) Guru Ji describes that the soul merges with God and there is no differences between God and the human soul but like a drop of water in an ocean, the drop of water does not become an ocean but it will be very difficult to tell the difference.

The highest level a human can attain is to be the serveant of God (Japji) and Guru Ji says there are infinite numbers of serveants of God.

So we all have the chance to unite with God, and merge with the supreme light.

In Gurbani the Guru's Guru was God (and that why Guru is described as such). For Guru Nanak there can be no other than God as the Guru. Throughout the Gurbani Gurus have portrayed God as something dimensionless, without physical attributes, all pervading, unborn ...............but still we want to degenerate into thinking like the Christians and say Guru Nanak was God. Ashame on us. We are insulting our Gurus. Ashame that Sikhi is eons ahead of its time but we cannot accept the truth. The Gurus spoke of infinite life forms throughout the cosmos (and I am sure we will still say God created man in his image but the truth is God created the cosmos in 'his' image). We are arrogant and mislead. Please understand our Gurus and do not insult them. How many times do you want the Gurus to tell you that God does not come into human or animal form. Its not possible. God is in every living form, the difference between us and the Gurus was that they were united with the infinite light (Japji). In Salok Mehla Nauavan Guru Ji says that only one (human) in many millions is truly united with the infinite or has knowledge of the infinite (and on this topic so many unlearned people like me are giving opinions of God! we are so arrogant!). Why do we not want to understand Gurbani? If we do, then we don't believe in it! rather we have more belief in ancient practices and religious systems.

[5ikh]

For centuries people have used religion for their own ends. I should say misused.
Anyone who asks is Guru Nanak was God, unfortunately does not understand Gurbani.

In Gurbani Gurus state that God does not come into physical existance (but resides in all living beings and everywhere). God has no physical attributes. God does not take birth and so on.

So this is the premise of your post? Then please provide the shabad that says it

[5ikh]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Was Guru Nanak God?
Persons with different perspectives would answer this question differently.

1. Those who do not believe in God would consider Guru Nanak just an ordinary person would obviously say no as the answer. They would consider Guru Nanak just an historical personality.

2. Those who consider God to be an anthropomorphic entity ( a human like superman) living in Baikunth of the Vaishnav Hindus that takes birth on earth, or the Allah, God or Jaweh of Muslims, Christians or Jews that speaks to the prophets in the form of revelations recorded in scriptures. They may consider Guru Nanak to be an incarnation of Krishan or Ram Chander like as an avtar or as the revealer of truth to prophets.
These persons may consider Guru Nanak to be a Avtar or may be a prophet.

3. Then there are those who have their eyes opened by a Satgur as per Bhagat Namdev ji:

ਸਭੈ ਘਟ ਰਾਮੁ ਬੋਲੈ ਰਾਮਾ ਬੋਲੈ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਬਿਨਾ ਕੋ ਬੋਲੈ ਰੇ ॥1॥
Sabhai ghat ram bolai rama bolai. Ram bina ko bolai re.
In all bodies it is God who speaks. Who but God speaks.

Such Gurmukhs and Brahm Gyanis see God in every body. For them it is God alone who speaks in every body. As an example for Bhai Ghanayia saw Guru Gobind Singh ji as God as much as the Mughal soldiers were also God as he perceived. When one’s eyes are opened by a Satgur one begins to see God in every body.
Thus, for a true Gurmukh Sikh, brahmgyani Gursikh Guru Nanak is as much God as Bhai Mardana was God or for that matter Sajjan Thug was a God.

Therefore, at the level of an enlightened sikh Guru Nanak was God as much as any other living being because it is God within them that is alive and speaks and breaths.

Humbly
Serjinder Singh

Serjinder Singh, you start off with saying people have different perspectives, but then end off the post by saying those that agree with you are more spirtiually enlightened. In this post you have not even done justice to presenting the different perspectives and when you try to show your opinion is correct, you manipulate Gurbani. I believe people with the perspective on how you described in number 3 are actually stuck on a certain level when it comes to Sikhi and some are just here to distort Sikhi by presenting the third perspective. Whatever the goal is of the poster the perspective in itself has flaws in it, Gurbani does not agree with it. I have pointed these flaws out with my post addressed to Dhanvinder Singh. Seeing God in everyone and God taking one form is completely different and this explanation on how they are different has been given, so please search the topic.

And the Gurbani you presented, please provide the ang number so I can read it in context of the Shabad Guru.

Sant Baba Jarnail Singh ji Khalsa, once said if you want to see Waheguru because he was asked a question, and he replied with, then look at Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji and you will see Waheguru. Tell me why didn't a Sant just say look at any human?

There is a Sakhi of Bhagat Kabir Ji Maharaj sitting on the throne of God (well the Hindus thought it was Gods throne and he will come down and sit on it), but Bhagat ji sat on it. Why didn't Bhagat Kbair Ji Maharaj take a theif and put him on the throne of Waheguru. With your remarks, you are suggesting that Sant Jarnail SIngh Ji Khalsa and Bhagat Kabir ji Maharaj are not spiritual and just lost souls. There are more examples, like Sant Baba Isher Singh ji, but I think you get the point. Akal Purakh has a Sargan Saroop and Nargun Saroop. Nargun Saroop is in everyone because they are in the circle of Waheguru's creation, but only Bhagat Kabir Ji Maharaj and Sant Baba Jarnail SIngh ji Khalsa and others like them had the Sargun Saroop of Akal Purakh.

[5ikh]

Gurbani is not wise, but the words of Akaal Purakh and there is no meter stick in existence to measure the Shabad Guru amazing teachinges. To call it wise is an insult. Gurbani in a clear cut way says Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji is Waheguru himself.

What is it in this world that is not word of The Creator? Since there is only one creator, everything we say, everything written books, and everything written in scriptures are words of the same creator, simply because the same creator created everything. Bible, Koran and Guru Granth Sahib are all words of The Creator and so are the books on Harry Potter.

Read the post i wrote to Serjinder Singh and go through this thread, these simple minded remarks have been answered.

Don't group everyone's understanding as equal to others. I wrote a reply to Dhanvinder Singh and in there, I touch on what your so against and limiting Waheguru too, but yet call him the only One Creator.

Of course The Creator is infinite. Therefore, someone with finite intelligence can not claim to understand The Creator. Until we entirely understand The Creator, we can not honestly claim that someone was The Creator. In fact, it's impossible for anybody to be The Creator.

Gurbani is Waehguru in Sargun Saroop so Gurbani tells us Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji is Waheguru. And it is very disrespectful to say Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji had finite intelligence. Go into the thread and read it carefully, what you are presenting now, all has been answered. If you find something wrong with the answeres, then bring the answers forward and then we can discuss.

I have not even talked about Waheguru's hukam in the questions i asked you.

When I said that The Creator created everything in this world,regardless of whether it was good or bad, you asked me how many of the Sikhs actually cried when they were being cut into pieces. So, to me, this meant that Sikhs had learned to accept Lord's will (being cut into pieces).

That remark was showing how the Khalsa accepts his play and does not see good and bad, all they see is Gurmat.

But yes, there obviously is good and bad. Let me just give you an example. Let's take harrassing someone as an example. I am pretty sure, you agree that harrassing someone is bad.

Read Sri Anand Sahib da paat and then answer that qeustion for yourself. Good and bad only exist in those minds which are lost in the world.

Even if bullying is bad, it was also created by The Creator who created everything else in this world.

So your saying the creator you worship, made a mistake?

My original question was whether or not you would give gurus the same respect if they created something bad. Now let me ask you this: would you give gurus the same respect if they allowed their followers to bully people around or created the concept of bullying?

I am pretty sure the answer is no.

I answered your question with questions. Tell me what the permanent state of The Guru is? And answer all the question i asked you. Don't be selective to the ones that only serve your purpose. Waheguru in the form of The Gurus gave us Gurmat and set his play around it. I will not question my Gurus ability. I'll leave this to those that strive on their manmat.

So, happened here is that The Creator created everything, good and bad but I know for sure that gurus would have never done something bad.

Therefore, I don't see how anybody could ever be same as The Creator.

Tell me the permanent form of the Gurus? Why ignore this question?

This thread goes around in a circle, where I answer all of the questions of the ones that don't believe in Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji as Waheguru, but when it comes to answering mine, they run around looking for escape holes. Please this is a discussion, not a win or lose arguement. If you don't have the answers to the questions, then just say so and they will be provided. No one's spirituality will be lowered by admitting, I don't know. Infact their spirituality will grow.

[VeeruS]

So your saying the creator you worship, made a mistake?

There is only one creator. It isn't like if you worship someone different from me, it's going to create in two creators. There was only on creator and will remain as such, regardless whom we worship.

The same creator created everything, good and bad.

No, The Creator did not make a mistake. Good and bad put together makes the world complete. Good is only part of the creation, not the entire creation.

But it was pretty disrespectful to The Creator by saying that The Creator made a mistake by creating something bad, such as bullying. But, that's OK being disrespectful to The Creator was also created by the same creator.

If you believe that there is nothing good or bad, then why would Sikhs need to fight against certain people they thought were doing bad?

And it is very disrespectful to say Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji had finite intelligence.

I was not referring Guru Nanak Dev Ji having finite intelligence. I was referring us having finite intelligence and trying to judge The Creator, who is infinite, by claiming that Guru Nanak Dev Ji was same as The Creator.

What generally refers to God is the good part of this creation or at least what considered good in any religion, but usually does not refer to The Creator.

For example, nobody would ever say that thank God, there exists bad in this world, when we know that even bad was created by the same creator who created good in this world.

[GSdhillon]

First, the Gurbani time and again stresses that God is omnipresence, omnipotence and omniscience. In other words, the entire creation is pervaded with His infinite Grace.
 ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥: khaalik khalak khalak mehi khaalik poor rahiou srab thaa(n)ee: The Creation is in the Creator (God), and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places (sggs 1350).

Second, since God is within each of us here and now, the Gurbani repeatedly reminds us that there is nowhere to go to find Him! And that those who look for Him elsewhere are just deluded.
 ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਘਰ ਮਹਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਨਾਹੀ ॥ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਟੋਲੈ ਸੋ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਹੀ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜਿਨੀ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪਾਇਆ ਸੋ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਸੁਹੇਲਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥: Sabh kish ghar mahi baahari naahee. Baahari tolai so bharam bhulaahee. Gur Parasaadee jinee antari paiaa so antari baahari suhelaa jeeou ||1||: Everything is within (the body – ਸਰੀਰ ਵਿਚ ਅੰਤਹ ਕਰਨ ਰੂਪੀ ਘਰ ਅੰਦਰ); there is nothing outside of It. One who searches outside is deluded by doubts. By the Guru’s Grace, who has Realized the Lord within is Happy (ਆਤਮਕ ਸੁਖ), inwardly (i.e., while contemplating within) and outwardly (i.e., while living in the world) ||1|| (sggs 102).
Last, but not least, the Gurbani asserts that when a person realizes God within his own body (by removing the curtain of the false ego-sense; acquiring all the godly virtues or qualities God is indicated to exhibit; etc.) that person himself becomes God-like. In other words, he links in Union with God by dissolving his limited individual self (Haume) into the Infinite Wisdom (Brahm Giaan).
 ਆਪੁ ਗਇਆ ਤਾ ਆਪਹਿ ਭਏ ॥: Aap gaiaa taa aapahi bhae: When ego (ਆਪਾ-ਭਾਵ) is gone, (one) becomes the Lord (ਉਹ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦਾ ਰੂਪ ਹੀ ਹੋ ਗਇਆ) Himself (sggs 202).
 ਨਾਨਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ॥੬॥: Nanak Brahm Giaanee aap Permesur ||6||: Says Nanak, the knower of God (Brahm Giaanee) himself is the exalted Lord ||6|| (sggs 273).

[GSdhillon]

This will be my last post:

Gurbani says God dwells within the heart of all of us, day and night. And, according to the Gurbani, those who don’t understand this simple fact are just fools.

ਤੂ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਵਸਹਿ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਾਉ ਨ ਬੁਝਹਿ ਗਵਾਰੀ ॥: Too hiradai gupat vasahi din raatee teraa bhaaou n bujhahi gavaaree: (O Lord) You dwell, hidden, within the heart (of all beings) day and night, but the fools do not understand to Love You (sggs 607).

I urge all to go to this site

http://www.sikhs.wellington.net.nz/Sikh_Religion.pdf

and download pdf version of sikhism and science. Its good but not comprehensive. Best I have seen.

[perrysingh]

Mr. GSDhillon,

Guru Nanak was in fact God. Ask any Saint. Unfortunately, many scholarly types who recieve their education in secular institutions such as universities and colleges think that this education gives them some insight into our faith that Sikhs of previous generations did not have. Mr. Dhillon, those previous generations of Sikhs, who were not university educated were privvy to knowledge that is not possessed today by most Sikhs.
Those previous generations of Sikhs did not believe any difference between their Guru and God himself. Perhaps the Gurus did not want anyone to call them as such, however, one need only read references made by the Gurus themeselves when they would reference the Guru they succeeded. All of the Gurus prostrated before Satguru Nanak. Why do think that was? Mr. Dhillon, I would suggest you find other sources of knowledge in our religion - like the uneducated Saint or Sadhus that still exist in rural Punjab today. There, you you maybe enlightened as I was. I was taught what I know by an uneducated man, but highly educated in our religion.
Guru Nanak was God in human form. Let that sink in. And by the way, a real Sikh does not use his surname.

Sat Kartar

[GSdhillon]

As I said previous discussion would be my last post and therefore no more discussion.

One last point: there is an English saying "you can lead horse to water but can't make it drink..."
No matter what the Gurbani says, many will not believe Gurbani and therefore will continue to disrespect Guru Nanak.

Your choice

[5ikh]

As I said previous discussion would be my last post and therefore no more discussion.

One last point: there is an English saying "you can lead horse to water but can't make it drink..."
No matter what the Gurbani says, many will not believe Gurbani and therefore will continue to disrespect Guru Nanak.

Your choice

This horse is drinking the water of Gurbani, along with Sant Baba Nand Singh ji Maharaj and every other Gurmukhs that drank the Immortal Nectar given by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji.

gur nwnk dyv goivMd rUp ]8]1]
gur naanak dhaev govi(n)dh roop ||8||1||
Guru Nanak Dayv is the Embodiment of the Lord of the Universe. ||8||1|| ang 1192

guru nwnku nwnku hir soie ]4]7]9]
gur naanak naanak har soe ||4||7||9||
Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9|| ang 864


DSDhillon, whatever you have written in your posts has already been answered in this topic, so please search for the answers.