Racism in 'Punjabi' movie

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Re: Racism in 'Punjabi' movie

Postby Nihal Singh Kanakpuria » Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:10 pm

Nihal Singh Kanakpuria ji,

The question of "faireness" and light skin is a totally different chapter, thats not about racisim, its about inate preferences,

I actually do not believe in inate preferences like that. It is all conditioning. Humans can be conditioned to almost anything and certainly to preferences like that. I think racism is also a result of conditioning.
[/quote]

Don't think you got my point

Check out the link below, it shows babies are pre-programed about beauty, though it doesnt not say they are pre-programmed for fairer face.

I do think babies get attracted to radiant faces, skin colour and condition that disperses light rather than absorb it and this is beacause of our inate response towards darkness and light, which was developed even before we became humans.

Conditioning is what we need to get away from such preferences when it comes to humans and with a few generations of such conditioning it might just become our inate preference towards all humans as humans.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... -myth.html
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Re: Racism in 'Punjabi' movie

Postby SportySardar » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:01 pm

Himmat Singhji,
We should condemn such practices. The more we experience other cultures and people, the more our horizons expand. As some one who has experienced both covert and overt racism, I would not want any other human being to feel the same way.

Nihal Singh Kanakpuria ji,
Beauty preferences for light skin are a thinly veiled excuse for racism. It is childish to believe that people who prefer light skin will not discriminate against dark skinned people. There has been no scientific study supporting your thesis. I would call these creative excuses to condone racism.

We have to first accept we have a problem. Till then we cannot start figuring out a solution. I always wish that more people of African origin take up SIkhism so that we can have a lot of diveristy in our religion. I have seen only a couple of African origin people as Sikhs and I feel they look regal in turbans.

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Re: Racism in 'Punjabi' movie

Postby Nihal Singh Kanakpuria » Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:56 am

SportySardar wrote:Himmat Singhji,
We should condemn such practices. The more we experience other cultures and people, the more our horizons expand. As some one who has experienced both covert and overt racism, I would not want any other human being to feel the same way.

Nihal Singh Kanakpuria ji,
Beauty preferences for light skin are a thinly veiled excuse for racism. It is childish to believe that people who prefer light skin will not discriminate against dark skinned people. There has been no scientific study supporting your thesis. I would call these creative excuses to condone racism.

We have to first accept we have a problem. Till then we cannot start figuring out a solution. I always wish that more people of African origin take up SIkhism so that we can have a lot of diveristy in our religion. I have seen only a couple of African origin people as Sikhs and I feel they look regal in turbans.

SS


I provided a link for a research that shows we are pre-programed towards beauty, and provided a very rational reason about colour preference and why it may be innate..If you want to eradicate something you need to understand it first as clearly as possible, trying to understand something in the light of established truth, however uncomfortable that maybe is not called providing creative reasons.

None of what i said in my above posts in any way, implicitly,explicitly or creatively calls for acceptance for racism or any form of discrimnation in a society. pls read carefully what's written before responding or passing judgements it makes the discussion meaningful rather than a meaningless cycle or provings ones point.
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Re: Racism in 'Punjabi' movie

Postby Theodorus » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:51 am

Nihal Singh Kankpuria ji,

The way you write this:
I do think babies get attracted to radiant faces, skin colour and condition that disperses light rather than absorb it and this is beacause of our inate response towards darkness and light, which was developed even before we became humans.

Would mean that even black babies would more like the face of a strange white woman then they would like their black mothers face. Surely that cannot be true?
I think the radiance you refer to must be of a more spiritual kind. Not a merely physical(scientific) one.
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Re: Racism in 'Punjabi' movie

Postby Nihal Singh Kanakpuria » Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:51 am

Theodorus wrote:Nihal Singh Kankpuria ji,

The way you write this:
I do think babies get attracted to radiant faces, skin colour and condition that disperses light rather than absorb it and this is beacause of our inate response towards darkness and light, which was developed even before we became humans.

Would mean that even black babies would more like the face of a strange white woman then they would like their black mothers face. Surely that cannot be true?
I think the radiance you refer to must be of a more spiritual kind. Not a merely physical(scientific) one.


Within the black community as well, some skin tones will reflect light and some absorb light, the ones that reflect light will be considered more attracted, like radiant or certain shine, glow. The person may not be spiritual at all, but still hv a glow in the skin.
As far as the white community goes it reflects light irrespective of its skin tone, the radiant ones reflect more,that could be a reason for the blanket preference.
I hvn't done research on it or even spent an day trying to find things about it , but this is what does make sense to me and my hunch is its more than conditioning or simple racisim.

Just like ppl think that our ancestors had a preference for a male child coz they were physically strong and could hunt etc etc, sure that was one of the reason , but the other important reason for them was that only males carry the Y cromoze, i.e. the paternal ancestory of a female cannot be establised. It was the animal instincts of a male or inate in a male to want a male child to pass down his genetic mark/DNA and without a male child it wasn't possible to pass down his genetic mark. just a different view to look at an old issue.
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Re: Racism in 'Punjabi' movie

Postby Theodorus » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:30 pm

Nihal Singh Kanakpuria ji,

Within the black community as well, some skin tones will reflect light and some absorb light, the ones that reflect light will be considered more attracted, like radiant or certain shine, glow. The person may not be spiritual at all, but still hv a glow in the skin.
As far as the white community goes it reflects light irrespective of its skin tone, the radiant ones reflect more,that could be a reason for the blanket preference.
I hvn't done research on it or even spent an day trying to find things about it , but this is what does make sense to me and my hunch is its more than conditioning or simple racisim.

Just like ppl think that our ancestors had a preference for a male child coz they were physically strong and could hunt etc etc, sure that was one of the reason , but the other important reason for them was that only males carry the Y cromoze, i.e. the paternal ancestory of a female cannot be establised. It was the animal instincts of a male or inate in a male to want a male child to pass down his genetic mark/DNA and without a male child it wasn't possible to pass down his genetic mark. just a different view to look at an old issue.

To be honest this kind of reasoning frightens me a lot.
I would fit perfectly in the reasoning the Germans used before WWII (NAZI's). In their racial theories the fair skinned blond race was superiour. Did you know they even selected boys and girls and raised them in a sort of 'breading factories' to get 'pure race' offspring. This racial thinking in the end led to the annihilation of millions of people just because of their race. The killing of the jews had less to do with their faith but more with their 'race'. In fact the Germans tried to kill all 'less than perfect' humans (crippled, homosexuals, mentally retarded, etc.).

This kind of thinking also lead shrewed Dutch and Enlish merchands in buy black slaves in Africa to sell them with great profits in the America's. They thought of the black people they bought and sold of not much better than cattle (not human).

This kind of thinking uses semi-'logical' reasoning 'like a fair face radiates more light' (implying it is better) to 'convince' people that being white is superiour. To my opinion this kind of reasoning leads directly to racism.
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Re: Racism in 'Punjabi' movie

Postby Nihal Singh Kanakpuria » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:53 am

Theodorus wrote:Nihal Singh Kanakpuria ji,

Within the black community as well, some skin tones will reflect light and some absorb light, the ones that reflect light will be considered more attracted, like radiant or certain shine, glow. The person may not be spiritual at all, but still hv a glow in the skin.
As far as the white community goes it reflects light irrespective of its skin tone, the radiant ones reflect more,that could be a reason for the blanket preference.
I hvn't done research on it or even spent an day trying to find things about it , but this is what does make sense to me and my hunch is its more than conditioning or simple racisim.

Just like ppl think that our ancestors had a preference for a male child coz they were physically strong and could hunt etc etc, sure that was one of the reason , but the other important reason for them was that only males carry the Y cromoze, i.e. the paternal ancestory of a female cannot be establised. It was the animal instincts of a male or inate in a male to want a male child to pass down his genetic mark/DNA and without a male child it wasn't possible to pass down his genetic mark. just a different view to look at an old issue.

To be honest this kind of reasoning frightens me a lot.
I would fit perfectly in the reasoning the Germans used before WWII (NAZI's). In their racial theories the fair skinned blond race was superiour. Did you know they even selected boys and girls and raised them in a sort of 'breading factories' to get 'pure race' offspring. This racial thinking in the end led to the annihilation of millions of people just because of their race. The killing of the jews had less to do with their faith but more with their 'race'. In fact the Germans tried to kill all 'less than perfect' humans (crippled, homosexuals, mentally retarded, etc.).

This kind of thinking also lead shrewed Dutch and Enlish merchands in buy black slaves in Africa to sell them with great profits in the America's. They thought of the black people they bought and sold of not much better than cattle (not human).

This kind of thinking uses semi-'logical' reasoning 'like a fair face radiates more light' (implying it is better) to 'convince' people that being white is superiour. To my opinion this kind of reasoning leads directly to racism.


I know all about Nazi's, and the white supremacy etc etc. To eradicate a disease you need to first understand it, however scary maybe its oigin, There is no sense putting the issue under the carpet and being politically correct and to be honest a lot of the researchers may not do research to prove this hypothesis simply because ppl might think their research promotes racism or discrimination.

Racisim is considered an social ill because of belief that all men are equal however did we actually ask and seek answers to questions such as "Why in the first place is there a preference for the fair/white skin ?"

Why in the first place did the white ppl think they were better than the black?, Why in all of Asia/Indian etc communities Fairness creams are the most selling, Why in country such as Singapore with majority chinese population (who are already quite fair) are there seminars held about "whitening" treatments.

We need to ask these questions and understand why do a lot of asians/indians/blacks have this complex about the colour of their skin, What is the source of this social ill and if we figure out that it might merely be our response to a "colour" with respect to reflection or absorbtion of light then we will be in a better position to understand why we prefer what we prefer and how to not to give so much weigtage to "colour" when it comes to looking at humans.

Just a thought to ponder upon, the preference for a light skin partner in india predates Colonial rule, Alexanders rule etc, so it actually has nothing to do with the caucasian race or racisim.
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Re: Racism in 'Punjabi' movie

Postby himmat_singh » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:12 am

Nihal Singh Kanakpuria wrote:

Within the black community as well, some skin tones will reflect light and some absorb light, the ones that reflect light will be considered more attracted, like radiant or certain shine, glow. The person may not be spiritual at all, but still hv a glow in the skin.
As far as the white community goes it reflects light irrespective of its skin tone, the radiant ones reflect more,that could be a reason for the blanket preference.
I hvn't done research on it or even spent an day trying to find things about it , but this is what does make sense to me and my hunch is its more than conditioning or simple racisim.

Just like ppl think that our ancestors had a preference for a male child coz they were physically strong and could hunt etc etc, sure that was one of the reason , but the other important reason for them was that only males carry the Y cromoze, i.e. the paternal ancestory of a female cannot be establised. It was the animal instincts of a male or inate in a male to want a male child to pass down his genetic mark/DNA and without a male child it wasn't possible to pass down his genetic mark. just a different view to look at an old issue.


Sat Sri Akal.

Nihal ji, I think there is danger in people using your arguments to discriminate. All people can "glow" or be "radiant" and hence be attractive, irrespective of skin tone. I myself have seen beautiful white women and equally beautiful black and brown women. Beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder, and one will value features as one is conditioned to value them by society and media. If you are conditioned to recognise white as the colour to admire, then that is what you will aspire to. If every advert/tv show/film showed a few but mainly ugly white women, with ragged clothes living in poverty perhaps with various diseases, and at the same time showed them against countless beautiful south asian women. wearing lovely clothes and jewellery, with big smiles and having fun , one will feel sorry for the whites and feel keen to merge with south asian society ( in my opinion of course) .

Furthermore, you are totally incorrect with respect to what can be determined from genes. It is perfectly possible to determine full parentage from the genes of females and males. 23 chromosomes come from the father, and 23 from the female. The fact one is Y or an X shaped is irrelevant and determines only the sex, but all the cells of the child will reveal the father and the mother, if this information is required to be determined. The blend determines the physical traits of the child, and social and environmental conditions further affect the mental nature of the child as it develops before and after birth.

Whilst you may have given one good reason for why some people may wish to have male offspring, (ie to help parents) there are many others - eg with respect to South Asians society, there had for many centuries prior to Guru Nanak and during the lifetime of the Gurus, considerable dastardly actions by invaders. They raped young women (girls) and made slaves of them in tens of thousands, (as well as other deeds), in local markets, in central Asia and the middle East. They were totally undervalued and the parents had to endure this. They were a commodity, as were Blacks from Africa. To prevent this total humiliation native parents would resort to infanticide, or marry them off very young, sometimes as young as 5 or 6. The caste ridden society, led by Brahmins, offered only fate as solace to the suffering society. Some of this became a tradition and it continued even after the invaders lost power. My own mammy/mama (now both lately expired) were married at 11/13 respectively. This deprived them of the possible joys of youth.
There are other factors such as effect of dowries and I am sure others as well. Give some money and it offloads the liability to someone else.
Women are God's children as much as any males, and I am sure you will see the need to help them to achieve equal status in society, something which does not happen to this day, even in Sikh society, despite the protestations that it does.
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Re: Racism in 'Punjabi' movie

Postby Theodorus » Mon Mar 16, 2009 11:48 pm

Nihal Singh Kanakpuria ji,

I know all about Nazi's, and the white supremacy etc etc. To eradicate a disease you need to first understand it, however scary maybe its oigin, There is no sense putting the issue under the carpet and being politically correct and to be honest a lot of the researchers may not do research to prove this hypothesis simply because ppl might think their research promotes racism or discrimination.

I'm all for research but having been in research for years I also know that research in these fields can be manipulated easily. So research is one thing, drawing conclusions from the research an other thing. More often then not manipulaters just take the conclusion (forget about the specific conditions under which the research is performed) and use them for their own (financial, economic or political) purposes.

Racisim is considered an social ill because of belief that all men are equal however did we actually ask and seek answers to questions such as "Why in the first place is there a preference for the fair/white skin ?"

Why in the first place did the white ppl think they were better than the black?, Why in all of Asia/Indian etc communities Fairness creams are the most selling, Why in country such as Singapore with majority chinese population (who are already quite fair) are there seminars held about "whitening" treatments.

We need to ask these questions and understand why do a lot of asians/indians/blacks have this complex about the colour of their skin, What is the source of this social ill and if we figure out that it might merely be our response to a "colour" with respect to reflection or absorbtion of light then we will be in a better position to understand why we prefer what we prefer and how to not to give so much weigtage to "colour" when it comes to looking at humans.

In this specific case (why white skin is valued more) I think the reasons are so multidimensional that all encompassing research will be impossible while 'partial' research can only give 'partial' (and thus incomplete or false) conclusions like the idea of 'rediance' mentioned earlier.

Not that it should not be researched. I just want to warn for jumping to conclusions on the basis of only partial research.
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Re: Racism in 'Punjabi' movie

Postby Nihal Singh Kanakpuria » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:08 pm

Theodorus wrote:Nihal Singh Kanakpuria ji,

I know all about Nazi's, and the white supremacy etc etc. To eradicate a disease you need to first understand it, however scary maybe its oigin, There is no sense putting the issue under the carpet and being politically correct and to be honest a lot of the researchers may not do research to prove this hypothesis simply because ppl might think their research promotes racism or discrimination.

I'm all for research but having been in research for years I also know that research in these fields can be manipulated easily. So research is one thing, drawing conclusions from the research an other thing. More often then not manipulaters just take the conclusion (forget about the specific conditions under which the research is performed) and use them for their own (financial, economic or political) purposes.

Racisim is considered an social ill because of belief that all men are equal however did we actually ask and seek answers to questions such as "Why in the first place is there a preference for the fair/white skin ?"

Why in the first place did the white ppl think they were better than the black?, Why in all of Asia/Indian etc communities Fairness creams are the most selling, Why in country such as Singapore with majority chinese population (who are already quite fair) are there seminars held about "whitening" treatments.

We need to ask these questions and understand why do a lot of asians/indians/blacks have this complex about the colour of their skin, What is the source of this social ill and if we figure out that it might merely be our response to a "colour" with respect to reflection or absorbtion of light then we will be in a better position to understand why we prefer what we prefer and how to not to give so much weigtage to "colour" when it comes to looking at humans.

In this specific case (why white skin is valued more) I think the reasons are so multidimensional that all encompassing research will be impossible while 'partial' research can only give 'partial' (and thus incomplete or false) conclusions like the idea of 'rediance' mentioned earlier.

Not that it should not be researched. I just want to warn for jumping to conclusions on the basis of only partial research.


There can never be 1 answer or 1 dimension with anything thats got to do with human mind and preference, however research can show whats the most proabable reason for most subjects, that does not mean the research is incomplete or false, more reasarch maybe needed ? yes and the only way to move forward is to keep asking why do we prefer what we prefer, rather than getting scared of some elements of society who will always misuse literature for their own purpose

Humans as such dont need a reason to discriminate, in reality there was and is no real reason for any form of discrimination, ppl come up with reasons and the ones who want discriminate to will always make one up, you cant stop moving forward because of them, infact reasarch may help them rationalise and understand their fears. The theory about radiating face and dispersing of light is about rationalising their fears,

Now what we need to ask ourselves is that in a humans do we value if the face disperses light or do we value the behavioural qualities of being a human.

Btw did you miss one of the key point in my previous post ?

"Just a thought to ponder upon, the preference for a light skin partner in india predates Colonial rule, Alexanders rule etc, so it actually has nothing to do with the caucasian race or racisim"
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