Sikh Reformism vs Nihang Traditions/Jhatka/Sukha Etc.

Discussions on various aspects of Sikhi

Re: Sikh Reformism vs Nihang Traditions/Jhatka/Sukha Etc.

Postby Taj Gill » Wed May 14, 2014 12:19 pm

Following up on what AS Khalsa mentioned in his last post, I find it very peculiar in this debate that the posters who are leaning towards Reform have not mentioned whatsoever why it was okay for the Reformists to basically discard the Sri Dasam Granth and Sri Sarbloh Granth, when they are written by the Guru himself. And in my opinion, using the reason/excuse that the themes involved in both these Granths are not "Sikh" like, is just ignorant. Compared to most world religions, ours is the most modern. The themes that are deemed "controversial" such as eroticism, is influenced by a Puritan way of thought. Most, if not all of us have sexual desires, which is a natural human trait. Obviously we cannot read the mind of Guru Gobind Singh Ji and question why he spoke about this subject in the Dasam Granth, but we as present day Sikhs have the ability to have open minds. Therefore, why not believe that the Guru was just speaking about reality, in regards to these "controversial" themes such as Opium and Sex, as opposed to believing "a man of great virtue would not promote such topics"?

The Budha Dal does more than what many of people think for the Sikh Community. They have used their resources, the limited amount that they have, and built schools for children in the modern day. Does that count as "not doing anything in the present"?

Another topic I'd like to address was the abolishment of the Masands, whose origins date back to the time of Guru Amar Das and were abolished by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. There have been claims that Reform needed to take place to get rid of their corruption. That is correct, but that was by the word of the Guru. As far as I'm concerned, the present day Guru is the Guru Granth Sahib, composed of the Adi Granth, Dasam Granth and Sarbloh Granth. Before Guru Gobind Singh Ji disappeared, he left Sikhism in the hands of the Granth and the Panth, the Panth meaning Akali Baba Binod Singh's Jathedar of Nihang Singhs. The idea of reform therefore should be in THEIR hands, not reformist movements that have ZERO ties to the Guru. As stated before, hierarchy in Sikhism is not a Democracy, it never has been, until the Reformist movement basically took over. To this day, the Nihangs/Budha Dal do not use a Democratic system. This is why I say that actions made by Reformist movements to Reform Sikhi and be the authority for our religion is absolutely false.
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Re: Sikh Reformism vs Nihang Traditions/Jhatka/Sukha Etc.

Postby AMARJEETSINGH 9561 » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:01 pm

lakwinder singh wrote:AS Khalsa ji wrote


No Jio, the land was given to Baba Kartar Singh by the Chowk Mehta Nihangs of the Bidhi Chand Dal, who were located next door up until very recently. Jathedar Sohan Singh Ji Bidhi Chandia himself presided over Baba Kartar Singh's ceremony of succession.Before this, the only lands possessed by the Taksaal were those at Bhindra, set up by Baba Sundar Singh Bhindranwale. Before that even, Taksaal was a mobile institution.


Dal bidhi chand is located at Sursingh Jhabal that is around 14 miles west of amritsar and chowk Mehta is located around same distance east of Amritsar. You are right about land given by Nihung singhs to Taksal at mehta. But it was not Baba Bidhi chand Dal who gave the land.

It was Budha Dal chief Baba Santa singh who had recognized Mohan singh Bhindran as head of taksal at village Bhindran near Ludhiana.Santa singh was uncle of Baba Mohan singh. He brokered peace between two claimants as being head of Taksal. So he gave land at chowk Mehta to Sant Kartar singh for building Gurudwara sahib and sant kartar singh ji shifted there.

Dal bidhi chand of sursingh had separated from Budha Dal many years before this. When Baba jarnail singh ji was waging agitation against Govt., Santa singh was opposed to him.Bidhi chand dal was main supporter of Sant ji and when Darbar sahib was invaded , Baba Daya singh sursingh with hundreds of villagers marched to Golden temple to help Sant Jarnail singh ji.


Actually know. This is straight of 'Sarbloh.com' whose veracity is questionable. I have asked Nihung Singhs of both Budha-Dal and the Baba Bidhi Chand Dal about their opinions on each other, and both parties have expressed the greatest love for each other. Baba Sohan Singh Ji himself placed the turban of Jathedari on Baba Santa Singh Ji's head in 1969. The fact that Gyani Kartar Singh Ji became head of Taksal in '61 A.D. refutes your claim. Baba Santa Singh Ji never interfered in the matters of Taksal and remained aloof from it. Even in the '90's Baba Daya Singh Ji was in favour of re-enrolling Baba Santa Singh Ji into the panth.
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Re: Sikh Reformism vs Nihang Traditions/Jhatka/Sukha Etc.

Postby lakwinder singh » Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:35 pm

No one would have allowed Baba Santa singh to interfere in affairs of Taksal.Santa singh is on record for bad mouthing sant Jarnail singh for defending akal takhat.That is how he became an agent of Govt to reconstruct akal takhat with Govt money.

Taksal was divided into two factions after demise of Gurbachan singh.Mohan singh who claimed ownership of one faction was related to Baba Santa singh.Bidhi Chand dal had and has always close relations with taksal.That is not the case of Budha dal whose present chief is a tainted person himself.However there are good gursikhs in Budha dal such as joginder singh Rakba and baba surjit singh(who is behind bars).
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Re: Sikh Reformism vs Nihang Traditions/Jhatka/Sukha Etc.

Postby lakwinder singh » Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:49 pm

Listen to Sant Jarnail singh in this video about Santa singh.Santa singh was alays a congress supporter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcgilXsikuc
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Re: Sikh Reformism vs Nihang Traditions/Jhatka/Sukha Etc.

Postby AS Khalsa » Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:10 am

That is not the case of Budha dal whose present chief is a tainted person himself.However there are good gursikhs in Budha dal such as joginder singh Rakba and baba surjit singh(who is behind bars).


What you have just said is completely contradictory and makes no sense. You say that Baba Joginder Singh and Baba Surjit Singh are good gursikhs, but the present chief of the Budha Dal is a tainted person? You do know that Baba Surjit Singh is the chief of the Budha Dal right? And that Baba Joginder Singh Ji Raqba is standing in for him as chief whilst he is in jail?
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Re: Sikh Reformism vs Nihang Traditions/Jhatka/Sukha Etc.

Postby lakwinder singh » Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:18 am

AS Khalsa wrote:
That is not the case of Budha dal whose present chief is a tainted person himself.However there are good gursikhs in Budha dal such as joginder singh Rakba and baba surjit singh(who is behind bars).


What you have just said is completely contradictory and makes no sense. You say that Baba Joginder Singh and Baba Surjit Singh are good gursikhs, but the present chief of the Budha Dal is a tainted person? You do know that Baba Surjit Singh is the chief of the Budha Dal right? And that Baba Joginder Singh Ji Raqba is standing in for him as chief whilst he is in jail?


Is not Balbir Singh chief of budha dal now? Please correct me if i am wrong.Surjit singh was not allowed to take stewardship of Budha dal by Balbir singh
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Re: Sikh Reformism vs Nihang Traditions/Jhatka/Sukha Etc.

Postby AS Khalsa » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:55 am

Is not Balbir Singh chief of budha dal now? Please correct me if i am wrong.Surjit singh was not allowed to take stewardship of Budha dal by Balbir singh


No, Balbir Singh is the SGPC-appointed 'Jathedar' of the SGPC/SAD [so by extension BJP] controlled Budha Dal. He was installed as leader of his newly created group after the previous Jathedar of the true Budha Dal, Baba Santa Singh, refused to prohibit the consumption of Sukha. Balbir Singh, supported by the likes of Nidar Singh Nihang [who has himself been unanimously excommunicated by the Jathedars of all the major Nihang Dals]is considered a pretender and an apostate by the true Budha Dal.

There are two Budha Dals. The one led by Baba Surjit Singh and Baba Joginder Singh has has cut off all ties with Balbir Singh's.
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Re: Sikh Reformism vs Nihang Traditions/Jhatka/Sukha Etc.

Postby lakwinder singh » Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:24 am

AS Khalsa ji

Please see

http://budhadal.com/?page_id=69
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Re: Sikh Reformism vs Nihang Traditions/Jhatka/Sukha Etc.

Postby AS Khalsa » Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:34 am

lakwinder singh wrote:AS Khalsa ji

Please see

http://budhadal.com/?page_id=69


Providing a link proves nothing at all. Just because a website says Balbir Singh is the true Jathedar of Budha Dal doesn't mean he is. There are a good many websites which disagree.

Please see: http://www.babasurjeetsingh.com/tag/jat ... budha-dal/
http://www.nihangsingh.org/

Anyone can make any website which purports any point of view. For instance, there are several official websites for the Damdami Taksaal [Chowk Mehta], each claiming a different person as Mukhi. The existence of a website saying something does not authenticate what it is saying.

Look at videos of Balbir Singh's dastaar bandi. There are barely any Nihang Singhs, let alone the Jathedars of the Dals, in attendance, most of the people there are SGPC or Sants who are not part of the Fauj. The Damdami Taksaal and every single battalion of the Taruna Dal has broken off ties with Balbir Singh's group.

It is no coincidence that the Punjab government and the SGPC endorses Balbir Singh, yet keeps his opponent Baba Surjeet Singh imprisoned for a crime he didn't commit. Baba Santa Singh loathed the SGPC, there is a dirth of material on the net and written in which he heaps scorn upon it. He would never have appointed Balbir Singh, openly their ally, as Jathedar.
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Re: Sikh Reformism vs Nihang Traditions/Jhatka/Sukha Etc.

Postby Taj Gill » Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:30 pm

Lakwinder Singh, AS Khalsa is right.

In my course, we discussed the exact same thing. That Baba Surjit Singh was falsely imprisoned, basically due to his stance on Sukha. Baba Joginder Singh is the true Jathedar/leader of the Budha Dal, the REAL Budha Dal.

Creating the false Budha Dal was another cheap tactic by reformists to try to undermine Traditional Sikhi, and continue to promote it as "Sanatan" so that it looks bad.
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