Sikh Reformism vs Nihang Traditions/Jhatka/Sukha Etc.

[AS Khalsa]

By present times I mean current affairs.

Issues like

1. Gurdwara Gyan Godri Haridwar

In that respect, the Nihang Singhs should certainly be more involved. The Nihangs of old were historically the guardians of Sikh shrines, and the fact their descendants are so conspicuously silent with regards this desecration is appalling.

2. Drug menace in Punjab

70% of Punjabi youth are drug users. That is a huge number of people, tens of thousands. The Nihangs number merely in the thousands, have barely any money with which to raise awareness, purchase printing presses and hire trained medical personnel. They have few highly educated professionals in their ranks. The other, reformist Jathebandia scorn the Nihang's practices as 'Hindu', brand them RSS agents and refuse to be associated with them. How could the Nihangs possibly accomplish such an immense undertaking as to eradicate the drug menace of the Punjab when they are alone, massively lacking manpower funds and expertise?

3. Justice for 84 riots victims

This requires political connections, to representatives of the countries in which the Sikh diaspora are found, and political groups in India. However, the Nihang Singhs are not politically well connected. The SGPC, or the Shiromai Akali Dal, however, do have connections, but make no effort to exploit them because they are weighed down by corruption.

4. Supporting Gursikhs & defeating corrupt Gurdwara Committees in elections

Here in the UK, there is bad blood between those who agree with the Nihang Maryada, and the members of the AKJ who constitute an overwhelming majority of practicing Sikhs involved in the Sikh community and Gurdwara matters. The AKJ is famously anti-meat/Jhatka. The Taksalis, who used to be the allies of the Nihangs in the militant days, have also turned against them and begun to fiercely denounce 'traditionalist' Sikhs for their practices.

Needless to say, many 'traditionalists' feel disillusioned, alienated, and like outsiders in the Panth. It is only natural that they remain disconnected from the quarrels of Gurdwara committees, which are the internal affairs of Jathebandia who hate them. No Nihang-administered Gurdware have committees. The concept of the committee, present in virtually every other sect, is alien to them.

[Taj Gill]

I didn't say alcohol and caste is Sikh custom, Pls read what i said.. i said present Sikhs are not devoid of them.
Future date Sikhs will follow these customs if present day Reformist don't work towards changing these.

Similarly Past Days reformist worked very hard so that make present Sikhs devoid of many such anti gurmat customs, However i see some present day traditionalist claiming that those customs are True Sikh Customs and trying their best to revive or hold on to them.

No one is re-writing history , we are reforming, evolving , shedding anti-gurmat customs (if those customs conflict gurmat)... Which is what we should do.



Nihal

I see what you mean now, but like I said, the drinking and caste is a cultural problem rather than religious problem. These problems apply to Sahajdhari and Keshdhari Sikhs, and as far as I know, there isn't a drinking problem with Amritdharis. I think Caste is a bigger problem than drinking because even some and I could even go out on a whim and say most Amritdhari's still believe in the Caste system. Rather than tackling this problem, corrupt Reformists made it worse by not allowing "low caste" people to be allowed in Sikhism. A prominent example is the recent Ravidassia Religion movement by people of the Chamar Caste, who split from Sikhism due to the non acceptance of their low caste status by the majority of higher caste Sikhs, and created their own religion based on Bhagat Ravidass' Banis and Teachings. Like AS Khalsa mentioned, the Traditionalist Sikhi of old would have different views on this, anyone could be a Nihang, Sevapanthi, Udasi, etc. and would still be under the umbrella of Sikhi and a brother/sister.

I'll say this again, I agree with certain anti-gurmat customs being reformed like walking around the Havan and Full Aarti Kirtan, but to say no one is rewriting history is a bit wrong. If history hasn't been rewritten, why is Banda Singh Bahadur portrayed as a hero by Reformists, when earlier historical content evidently shows that he disillusioned himself from the Panth, believed he was the 11th Guru, and has his own sect called the Bandai Khalsa? Why are all the Udasis portrayed as Hindus by Reformists because of a few Mahants that became corrupt? On the subject of Gurmat, why do some reformists reject most of the Sri Dasam Granth and do not even acknowledge/know what the Sri Sarbloh Granth are? These two Granths were written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji and help form the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, so how is that not considered anti-Gurmat?

Reformism can be a good thing, but there is such thing as being radical with reform. Even the Nirmalas supported the Singh Sabha Movement at the time of its inception due to the realization that some Udasi Mahants that ran the Gurdwaras were becoming corrupt/falling into Hindu ideals which led to an Udasi sect being created called the "Arya Samaj" which were essentially Hindu Udasis, but somehow the entire sect of Udasis were branded as being part of this group. The Nirmalas eventually backed out of the Singh Sabha movement becaused they realized the Reformists were going too far.

[Sikh2014]

What does khalsa mean ? Pure. What is impure? Corruption. What causes corruption? Time. How do you do the cleaning? Reformation.

Why can't people stay on top of the cleaning? We all think someone else will do it. Why do we think this way? Because that's part of the human condition.

Will we always need a reformation? Will time stand still? Yes & No respectively.

[singhbj]

I agree with Sikh2014.

Punj Piyaras were given authority by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji over temporal matters.

They can call Sarbat Khalsa forum, then decide on reforms.

[AS Khalsa]

I agree with Sikh2014.

Punj Piyaras were given authority by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji over temporal matters.

They can call Sarbat Khalsa forum, then decide on reforms.

When Guru Sahib instituted the Hukam that Sikhs were to obey the commandment of the Panchayat, a gathering of Panj piaraay, the Khalsa was united beneath one Rehat and a single identity. There was no AKJ maryada, or Taksali Maryada. Now, there are hundreds of different sects, each with radically different views, and who in a lot of cases, can't stand one another.

I agree that the Panj Piaraay have authority, but where will we find the five? How will they be chosen? Which Jathebandia will they be from? They can't all be from one, that is blatantly biased. Electing five Nihangs or five Taksalis or five AKJ to tell all Sikhs what is permissible and what isn't permissible will not achieve anything.Each of the five should be representatives of the largest and most influential jathebandia, though you'll have to stop them clawing at each other's throats first. There must be unanimous agreement across all the different Sikh groups.

[Nihal Singh Kanakpuria]

I see what you mean now, but like I said, the drinking and caste is a cultural problem rather than religious problem. These problems apply to Sahajdhari and Keshdhari Sikhs, and as far as I know, there isn't a drinking problem with Amritdharis.

You see Taj how cleanly and swiftly solved drinking issues for "Sikhs" by tagging it to a sehahdhari Sikhs only.. and yet you think traditionalist would have done a better job ?

I had posted my response about sects in Sikhs but as usual our esteemed moderators think its rude and apparently my language is uncivil coz i didn't pin all responsibility of divide in Sikh community to "higher" caste only.

Anyway i am not one to do pvt discussions so this is all i had to say on this topic.

Nihal

[singhbj]

I agree with Sikh2014.

Punj Piyaras were given authority by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji over temporal matters.

They can call Sarbat Khalsa forum, then decide on reforms.

When Guru Sahib instituted the Hukam that Sikhs were to obey the commandment of the Panchayat, a gathering of Panj piaraay, the Khalsa was united beneath one Rehat and a single identity. There was no AKJ maryada, or Taksali Maryada. Now, there are hundreds of different sects, each with radically different views, and who in a lot of cases, can't stand one another.

I agree that the Panj Piaraay have authority, but where will we find the five? How will they be chosen? Which Jathebandia will they be from? They can't all be from one, that is blatantly biased. Electing five Nihangs or five Taksalis or five AKJ to tell all Sikhs what is permissible and what isn't permissible will not achieve anything.Each of the five should be representatives of the largest and most influential jathebandia, though you'll have to stop them clawing at each other's throats first. There must be unanimous agreement across all the different Sikh groups.

Trust me it can happen.

I took Khandey Da Amrit in Dubai.

At that time I wasn't aware of the differences in Khalsa Panth.

Later on i met four of the Singhs out of Punj Piyaras at other program's.

That is when I came to know that two were Akj, one Ddt, one secular.

Irrespective, they came to a consensus and we were ordained to do Mool Mantar till "Nanak hosi bhi sach".
There was no comment & controversy on Raag Mala.
For Jhatka were told to follow diktats of Gurbani.(neither for nor against)
Being expatriates we were told to do an additional Japji Sahib Paath in case we had to remove Kirpan or any Kakaar and then ask forgiveness in Ardas.

Now that is what I call Waheguru's kirpa !

With that anything is possible.

[Punjabi G]

What does khalsa mean ? Pure. What is impure? Corruption. What causes corruption? Time. How do you do the cleaning? Reformation.

Absolutely agree with you Singh Ji! I think the premise of this discussion was incorrect. With time, there are bound to be changes and nobody can control time. Nor do Sikhs want to be so rigid that they simply cannot accommodate changes. The fact that we have gone through 'reforms' means that we are a dynamic religion which strives to take charge as needed. The footprint for such actions was laid by Guru Sahib themselves.

When Guru Gobind Singh Ji abolished the practice of Masands was he being a 'reformist' vs. 'traditionalist'? Masands were appointed by 3rd Guru Amardas Ji and the practice continued on till Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time. But by then, masands were neither honest, ethical representatives of Sikh panth nor were they following the Gurbani and practices of Sikhi. Therefore, Guru Sahib abolished the entire system. Same goes for further developments within Sikh panth especially after Guru period when Sikhs were heavily persecuted. Nirmalas, Nihangs and other groups had their contribution to Sikh panth but not today. Today they are fringe groups still under Sikh panth.

I don't see anything wrong with multiple groups as long as Gurbani and Guru Granth Sahib is still the foundation. The 'reforms' are necessary because overtime power gets abused by few groups. SGPC at one point was playing vital role in providing necessary structure and guidance to Sikh panth. Today this organization is bloated, corrupt to the core in the hands of few and impacts Sikh affairs in a very negative way. I for one am looking forward to next wave of 'reforms' to get rid of this organization and it's corrupt leaders!

[lakwinder singh]

Nirmalas and Nihungs have done splendid service for sikh panth. Major contribution to sikh literature
and exposition of gurbani is from Nirmalas.They have sacrificed in Gurudwara reform movement and
preaching.Sant attar singh ji mastuane was a Nirmala who raised sikh panth afresh from near extinct.
Damdami taksal itself has links with Niramalas and Nihungs. It has a become a fashion to malign
them especially abroad.

Nihungs have contributed immensely for sikh panth.A time was there when all sikhs were Nihungs. Guru
Gobind singh ji was a Nihung himself. Damdami Taksal and Nihung were one jathebandi under Baba Deep
singh ji.It was Misl shaheedan.Later one became sikh seminary and rest engaged in warfare.Who has sacrificed
more than Nihungs for sikhs? None else.Oldest sikh maryada is of damdami taksal. I see nothing wrong in that.

SGPC has watered down sikh rehat maryada and has become a bureaucratic set up.That is what happens when traditions
are spoiled. Singh sabha lehar did some good work to save sikhs from Hindu onslaught.But on other hand they proved
loyalists to British when they wrote to British against claim of Maharaja Duleep singh.They along SGPC are responsible
for killing sikh scholarship that was thriving under Nirmala scholars.

Present state of affairs is further worsened by fifth columnists who have intruded as so called missionaries. They attacked bani of khalsa to start with and are attacking now teachings of Guru Granth sahib openly by creating Hindu phobia saying reincarnation ,simran, soul are Hindu concepts.With hardly any academics to their credit they become scholars after some months of missionary course.There is no naam simran in their course of study and they call it parroting.
8 and 10 grade style them as professors. Where are their ethics?

In olden times sikhs had character and it was recognized by foreigners.Truthfulness was one such trait.In English ruled Malaya (present day malaysia and singapore) if a sikh appeared as a witness in some case Judge used to give judgement on his statement.Why? because of truthfulness that was their hallmark.

A south India, most probably OM Mathai (if i remember his name correctly) rose to become secretary of Nehru first prime minister of India.He writes when he came to Delhi for job prospects he was very poor.he was to go back to his home in south and fell short of some money to purchase ticket.He saw a sikh(Those days all sikhs wore turbans by and large) and borrowed money stating his dilemma.he gave him money.Mathai asked where should he return this.He told no return and advised if you see a needy person in your life later give this to him/her.

What a model character sikhs had?But today's politicians have ruined us.When such situation comes God sends someone to set things right.May be we are nearing that era where we become model characters ourselves and help downtrodden humanity,stamp out corruption, checkmate communist tendencies and be a model of sacrifice for others.That is why Guru sahib had created khalsa infusing a martial spirit in us by his martial bani.
Guru is great and panth for which sikhs have sacrificed so much will rise like a phoenix.

[AS Khalsa]

What does khalsa mean ? Pure. What is impure? Corruption. What causes corruption? Time. How do you do the cleaning? Reformation.

Why can't people stay on top of the cleaning? We all think someone else will do it. Why do we think this way? Because that's part of the human condition.

Will we always need a reformation? Will time stand still? Yes & No respectively.

What is impure or corrupt about the practices of the Nihangs?