Sikh Leadership - Its failure and Effects

Discussion of life's dilemmas, blessings and challenges. Got Questions? Need Answers? This is the place to be. Feel comfortable with asking any question. Anonymous posting is allowed. Questions are answered by anyone in the sangat who feels they can help.

Re: Sikh Leadership - Its failure and Effects

Postby Romesh Kumar » Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:00 am

oxydracae wrote:considering Banda Bahadur or Ranjit Singh as a leaders of Sikh faith is like considering Emperor Akbar as leader of Muslim faith or Queen Victoria as leader of Christian faith... they were military commanders or rulers of their empires, not the leaders of faith

Problem is till Sikhs keep on looking humans as their leaders, it will only lead to sectarianism in the religion...

Sikhs have to accept their Holy Book Guru Granth Sahib as their leader...

Some people argue if Sikhs have good leadership they would have created separate Theocratic Political State... but is it mentioned anywhere in Guru Granth Sahib to fight for separate Political State ??


oxydracae Ji,
Emperors and rulers have a great contribution in keeping the people of a faith united and protecting the faih they follow thereby have helped the faith to survive and spread. Miri & Piri, raising of Khalsa introducing 5ks, only Singh/Kaur surname followed by various Rehatnamas have similiarity with the fact that leaders of a faith were, are and will be human beings.
If we follow the teachings fo SGGS Ji then we no more need the leaders nor any code of conduct. I think this is a kind of contradiction and contraversy which make able Sikhs a leaderless community. This has bred sectarianism which can be seen as dozens of sikh sects have already emerged.
There is no mention of separate sikh state in SGGS Ji but there was an attempt by some leaders to have it.
SSA
User avatar
Romesh Kumar
Power User
 
Posts: 868
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:04 am
Location: Nigeria

Re: Sikh Leadership - Its failure and Effects

Postby RabbiT.Grayowl » Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:32 am

oxydracae wrote:considering Banda Bahadur or Ranjit Singh as a leaders of Sikh faith is like considering Emperor Akbar as leader of Muslim faith or Queen Victoria as leader of Christian faith... they were military commanders or rulers of their empires, not the leaders of faith

Problem is till Sikhs keep on looking humans as their leaders, it will only lead to sectarianism in the religion...

Sikhs have to accept their Holy Book Guru Granth Sahib as their leader...

Some people argue if Sikhs have good leadership they would have created separate Theocratic Political State... but is it mentioned anywhere in Guru Granth Sahib to fight for separate Political State ??

It is mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib that Sikhs are to be Sovereign Nation.
Something more akin to the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Saint John of Jerusalem of Rhodes and of Malta.
We are not to be a Nation for the adherents of the Sikhi faith but he a Nation for all the Waheguru's disciples.
The fact that it has to be a separate Political State is a artifact of international politics.
SGGS page 47
ਮੇਰਾ ਤਨੁ ਅਰੁ ਧਨੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਜ ਰੂਪ ਮੈ ਦੇਸੁ ॥
The man says, I have the beauteous body, mine is the wealth and empire and country are exclusively mine.
ਸੁਤ ਦਾਰਾ ਬਨਿਤਾ ਅਨੇਕ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਰੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਵੇਸ ॥
He may have sons, wife, many mistresses and may enjoy myriad of pleasures and raiments.
ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਿਦੈ ਨ ਵਸਈ ਕਾਰਜਿ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਲੇਖਿ ॥੧॥
If God's Name abides not within his mind they are of no avail and account.

SGGS page 3
ਮੰਨੈ ਤਰੈ ਤਾਰੇ ਗੁਰੁ ਸਿਖ ॥ The faithful are saved, and carried across with the Sikhs of the Guru.
ਮੰਨੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਭਵਹਿ ਨ ਭਿਖ ॥ The faithful, O Nanak, do not wander around begging.
ਐਸਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ Such is the Name of the Immaculate Lord.
ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਨਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਮਨਿ ਕੋਇ ॥੧੫॥ Only one who has faith comes to know such a state of mind. ||15||
ਪੰਚ ਪਰਵਾਣ ਪੰਚ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥ The chosen ones, the self-elect, are accepted and approved.
ਪੰਚੇ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਦਰਗਹਿ ਮਾਨੁ ॥ The chosen ones are honored in the Court of the Lord.
ਪੰਚੇ ਸੋਹਹਿ ਦਰਿ ਰਾਜਾਨੁ ॥ The chosen ones look beautiful in the courts of kings.
ਪੰਚਾ ਕਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਏਕੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥ The chosen ones meditate single-mindedly on the Guru
ῥαββί 虎 GrayOwl
RabbiT.Grayowl
Active Forum User
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:58 pm
Location: Palmer, Alaska(continental Alaska, not the one that's a Pacific island)

Re: Sikh Leadership - Its failure and Effects

Postby Guest » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:53 pm

The first and foremost thing is, one should be in the company of a highly-developed & illuminated soul whose mere presence will carry the mind and convert it into intuition. It means the 'aspirant' has had a few glimpses of the invisible side of spirituality. It is only then the fight between 'good and bad' begins. The importance of 'visible' world' keeps reducing to the extent 'invisible' world is 'achieved'.

The religion of Sahib-e-Kamaal, Shri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, is secret. It will be known secretly, it will be adopted secretly, it will operate secretly, it will be enshrined secretly. Two examples of this invisible religion:

1. Aurangzeb asked the 9th Master to display magic or face death. Came the reply that when his head will be severed, the sword will have no signs of blood (meaning the head will be severed before the sword touches the neck). The moghul kingdom was reduced by 200 years because of this sacrifice.

2. The moghul army kept opposing the 10th Master fully knowing that He was invincible (being a Prophet). But still in the hope that if, an arrow from the 10th Master hit a moghul soldier, he could be transported to salvation.

If the above description does not seem understandable, read it time and again, till an understanding is achieved.
Guest
 

Re: Sikh Leadership - Its failure and Effects

Postby Serjinder Singh » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:13 am

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Oxytracae wrote:

“Sikhs have to accept their Holy Book Guru Granth Sahib as their leader...

Some people argue if Sikhs have good leadership they would have created separate Theocratic Political State... but is it mentioned anywhere in Guru Granth Sahib to fight for separate Political State ??”


I see a fundamental contradiction between what Guru Granth Sahib ji says about desiring to have a state and what several posters are saying on this topic here. The topic being discussed implies to have a Sikh State which further implies a Theocratic State and the lack or ineptness of Sikh leaders. The questions that worry me are:

1. In this and age, is it proper or viable to create a theocratic state by a minority?
2. Is it wrong being a minority to participate in a state structure and society and strive to go for sharing the controls of economic, financial and technological levers of the state?
3. Can we learn something from the Parsi minority in India? or from Jews ignoring their experiment in Israel to uproot Palestinians?

As far as Guru Granth Sahib ji on having a state is concerned the following are some lines I could find.

SGGS Page 534
ਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਚਾਹਉ ਮਨਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲਾਰੇ ॥
Rāj na cẖāha▫o mukaṯ na cẖāha▫o man parīṯ cẖaran kamlāre.
I do not seek power, and I do not seek liberation. My mind is in love with Your Lotus Feet.

SGGS Page 406-07
ਰਾਜ ਨ ਭਾਗ ਨ ਹੁਕਮ ਨ ਸਾਦਨ ॥
Rāj na bẖāg na hukam na sāḏan.
Imperial power, fortunes, royal command and mansions –

ਕਿਛੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਨ ਚਾਹੀ ॥੨॥
Kicẖẖ kicẖẖ na cẖāhī. ||2||
I have no desire for these. ||2||
ਚਰਨਨ ਸਰਨਨ ਸੰਤਨ ਬੰਦਨ ॥
Cẖarnan sarnan sanṯan banḏan.
The Sanctuary of the Lord's Feet, and dedication to the Saints -
ਸੁਖੋ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਹੀ ॥
Sukẖo sukẖ pāhī.
these bring me peace and pleasure.


Humbly
Serjinder Singh
Serjinder Singh
Power User
 
Posts: 326
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 5:26 am

Re: Sikh Leadership - Its failure and Effects

Postby Sher dil » Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:22 pm

Sikh_13,

The unfortunate situation of Sikhs and Sikh leaders is because the morals of our society have become compeltely contary to our foundation. The foundation of Khalsa was laid against the principle of Imperialism over humanity. However, the Sikh leaders and Sikhs themselves are today complicit in Imperialism over their own land and people. Punjab is today the captive economy of India ravaged with drugs and farmer's suicide but our leaders not speaking against it- because they are themselves practicitioners of these doctrines of imperialism and caste slavery over millions.

We will continue to be exploited if we welcome exploitation at our doorsteps and remain ignorant.

Serjinder Singh ji,

I am interested to know if Guru Granth Sahib tell us what kind of state should we live in?
Sher dil
Active Forum User
 
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:20 pm

Re: Sikh Leadership - Its failure and Effects

Postby sikh_13 » Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:24 am

Sher dil ji,

My quest started from study of exactly the same situation as listed by you. More so it is the decline over last few decades which is significant. It is right to say that the rulers (political class) has a great rule to play in showing the way forward for a race/nation. In fact it is the combination of the spiritual leadership and political leadership which has a role to play. Fully aware of this, my Masters started the system of 'Miri and Piri'. Accordingly a mechanism was developed wherein sikh religious body and its political arm were to function in tandem. The irony of the situation is that sikh leadership of the day does not exist. There are some leaders who claim to represent sikh leadership but in real they are self seeking individuals who have manipulated themselves to the position they are in. The presence of these weak and self seeking leaders at the helm of affairs set poor examples for common people and this has lead to weakening of the faith as also compromising the economic and political position of the sikhs. The decline is visible in every sphere of life. Why it is of more concern is that if not checked, it has the potential to weaken the race immensely if not eliminate it altogether. Leadership has to come from individuals who have a understanding of the political/social and economic environment, who are self less and have a vision. This would help them to chalk a way forward. But the present day situation is dismal with little hope of ray. It would still have been ok if the rot was limited to political class leaving the religious leadership intact - but the rot is far widespread.

May Waheguru show the way!!!
User avatar
sikh_13
Active Forum User
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2008 2:28 am

Re: Sikh Leadership - Its failure and Effects

Postby Serjinder Singh » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:10 am

Serjinder Singh ji,

I am interested to know if Guru Granth Sahib tell us what kind of state should we live in?



Sher Dil ji

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

In Sri Guru Granth Sahib we find a beautiful composition by Bhagat Ravidas ji who coming from a very low untouchable casts gives us an image of a place which should be free from all the miseries, exploitation, and impediments of life that a down trodden citizen had to experience during the fifteenth century.

SGGS page 345

ਬੇਗਮ ਪੁਰਾ ਸਹਰ ਕੋ ਨਾਉ ॥ Begam Pura sehar ko nao.
The city ( I wish to live in) be named Begam (free from miseries) Pura (city).

ਦੂਖੁ ਅੰਦੋਹੁ ਨਹੀ ਤਿਹਿ ਠਾਉ ॥ Dukh andoh nahi tih thaon.
There would be no pain or worries in such a place.

ਨਾਂ ਤਸਵੀਸ ਖਿਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਮਾਲੁ ॥ Na tasvees khiraaj na maal.
There would be no enquiries or punitive levies nor land revenue to pay.

ਖਉਫੁ ਨ ਖਤਾ ਨ ਤਰਸੁ ਜਵਾਲੁ ॥੧॥ Khauf na khata na taras jawaal.
There would be no fear, no misdeeds, no pity, nor any economic downturn.

ਅਬ ਮੋਹਿ ਖੂਬ ਵਤਨ ਗਹ ਪਾਈ ॥ Ab mohey khoob vatan gah paee.
Now I have got a good hold on such a country.

ਊਹਾਂ ਖੈਰਿ ਸਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ Oohaan khair sada mere bhaee.
There my brother there residents welfare is always looked after.

ਕਾਇਮੁ ਦਾਇਮੁ ਸਦਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ ॥ kayam dayam sada patisahee.
This empire is ever stable and permanent.

ਦੋਮ ਨ ਸੇਮ ਏਕ ਸੋ ਆਹੀ ॥ Dome na same ek so ahee.
There are no second class or third class citizens there.

ਆਬਾਦਾਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਮਸਹੂਰ ॥ Abaa daan sada mashoor.
(This place) is ever famous for (plenty of) food (cereals) and water.

ਊਹਾਂ ਗਨੀ ਬਸਹਿ ਮਾਮੂਰ ॥੨॥ Oohaan ganee basaih mashoor.
There rich and creative people live.

ਤਿਉ ਤਿਉ ਸੈਲ ਕਰਹਿ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ॥ Tiu tiu sail karey jiu bhave.
There one can walk and stroll as one wishes

ਮਹਰਮ ਮਹਲ ਨ ਕੋ ਅਟਕਾਵੈ ॥ Maharm mahal nw ko atkave.
Everyone knows you there and no one stops you even within the royal palaces.

ਕਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਖਲਾਸ ਚਮਾਰਾ ॥ Kah Ravidas khalaas chamaara.
O Ravidas , the Chamar (leather worker) and scavenger (who carries away dead animals)

ਜੋ ਹਮ ਸਹਰੀ ਸੁ ਮੀਤੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥੩॥੨॥ Jo ham sahri so meet hamaara.
He who is my fellow citizen in such a place is my friend.


Humbly
Serjinder Singh
Serjinder Singh
Power User
 
Posts: 326
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 5:26 am

Previous

Return to Questions and Answers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests