How to control Sexual desire..help!

[PCJ2K]

Regarding last compassion, love and true love by Ishna on Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:47 am,

The only true love is unconditional love and there is no such thing as unconditional love. People usually love someone because of their own personal satisfaction, even when people love someone for the other person's benefit.

I really don't understand how someone could only have compassion in a relationship. Compassion could be for everyone in general and someone could not say that he or she only has compassion for his or her spouse because when it comes to compassion, people have compassion for animals and humans. But once you care more for someone than others, it becomes love.

I am pretty sure it would feel strange to anybody if his or her spouse came to her and said that she or he doesn't really love him or her, but only has compassion for him or her.

There obviously is a state of eternal bliss. People often feel that they can achieve this state by avoiding vices like lust for example. They believe that they can avoid lust for example by not getting involved in discussion about this subject or avoiding the word sex for example. But they don't realize that their inability to discuss this subject without being obsessed with it is an indication of lust within them.

Once something has achieved this state of eternal bliss, nothing will really distract him or her.

I will not assume that this state of eternal bliss is the state of revelation.

[5ikh]

Himmat ji, as I believe this is a indirect response to my post I will clear couple of points made by you. You have taken many points I made out of context and did not understand the subtle aspects of those points. So I'll make it clear as possible.

Sat Sri Akal,

Lust and love are definitely different. If all love were to be removed, then this would also remove love for Waheguru. Yet in such a very early passage of SGGS ji, on P2, Guru Nanak Dev ji writes:

Love for Waheguru, True love can never be compared to worldly 'love'. And no one is removing True love.

This is quite a serious topic that ought to be discussed openly, and you should not fear any remarks from anybody, male or female. All males are not alike, just as all females are not alike

I believe when Ishna said, "as I think it's probably best discussed amongst you male folk" it was implied that the men can discuss this topic sense a man is asking for answers. Men would be able to understand what he is going through and give a response. It was nothing about oppression, or putting fear in her. And you can read all the post here and in the other thread and please quote back to us where anyone has even indirectly tried to put fear in her. And if that is the case the mod's would have caught it and not let the post go up. If you do find one post then report it to the mod's and please quote it here. Or pm me and I'll make sure mods and admin will be notiified.

and so all do not see their life partners as nothing but child-bearers or house-keepers.

Please quote back to us where someone in this topic or I have said women are nothing but child-bearers or house-keepers. Quote back to us even if this was implied. And please quote appropriately and without cutting two sentences in half or leaving the first half or second half of the sentence out.

Most partners see their partners as a caring and supporting part of the one and the same partnership, that thrives on the love given to them and that loves in return. The same relationship is with Waheguru. He loves and rewards those who love Him.

Please quote back to us where a person has said, their partner is not to be cared or supported because they are seen as lower or anything as such. I request you don't take my writing out of context.Husband and wife relationship is not the same relationship with God. Guru Sahib uses that analogy to because humans could understand in context. Please don't place the Lord at the same level of humans. i am too lowly to be placed even at the feet of the Lord. There is no reward for loving the Lord. Even if their was then I still wouldn't care for it. Neither is the relationship with the Lord given and take as you described with the husband and wife love example and then equated it to the Lord. Everything in this universe is of the Lord, what can you give him? When Guru Sahib says love the Lord he is not saying return the favor or their will be abundance of wealth up in heaven for you. Guru Sahib says love the Lord because that is what the soul desires. Husband and wife love is worldly and will pass when one or both pass away. Husband and wife will only have True love amongst them if they love through/by the divine and this is when all other pleasures are dust and immaterial. Once you love by the divine all you see is the divine and don't look for wordly ways to show affection or what some like to call love. In this state the husband and wifes souls have truely become one. The one and only the Lord the creator and destroyor of the universe. This is called love, True love between Husband and wife.

There certainly are some S Asian practises that recommend total and complete detachment from worldly matters. It is said to lead to an empty mind, where only the Soul resides, and access to it, thus producing an effulgent light, deemed to be the light of the Purusa (the all prevading Self).

The mind is not to be emptied. I believe that is what Budhist try to achieve. The mind is to be filled with True love. The mind is to be filled with True love for the Lord. If the mind is empty then nothing exist. Then God doesn't exist.

This arises in sections of SGGS ji where there are references to remaining "dead while yet alive". There are 59 such references to this in SGGS ji. Most are composed by the Third and Fifth Gurus, Guru Ram Das ji and Guru Arjan Dev ji, but some also by Guru Nanak Dev ji, Guru Amar Das ji and Kabeer ji. it is possible they were absolute masters of the art, particularly as you note the references to seeing pleasure and pain as one and the same. Once one has trained the mind to deaden any perception, and then so become quite unresponsive to typical triggers that lead to such sensations, then that is what will happen. You will be dead whilst alive. If you read books on Yoga you will understand why yogis saw this as one of the pinnacles of their practice. If you ever wish to try to remove absolutely all attachments to absolutely everything, good or bad, right or wrong, to try to become "dead whilst yet alive" I suggest you first take advice from someone who is well versed in the art, as it can lead to both mental and physical problems unless care is taken. Many books are now available, but still most recommend you seek a teacher.
I believe they recognised the very real achievements of yogis but could see that similar results could be achieved whilst continuing normal household practices.

To be dead while alive is like to be the Lotus flower, surrounded by filth(maya), but not affected by it. This does not mean to have an empty mind. Hence why Guru Nanak Dev ji told the yogis go back into to society and become true yogis. Live in society and then claim yourself as True yogi, without maya stuck to you.

Without usual human practices of expressing love the Sikh Gurus' wives would not have bore children, so to suggest the Sikh Gurus saw the typical expression of love between a couple as one of the five evils is simply not correct.

When you express love through the divine then it is called True love. Guru Sahiban wives had children through the love Guru Sahib expressed of the divine. Guru Sahib expressed/lived in the love of the divine. What humans call love is not love through the divine. It's lust/attachment. Please as I told Ishna ji understand the subtle aspects of what I am saying.

It did not require complete removal of the triggers; once one understood the nature of the mind, one could limit ones reaction. It is about managed control of responses not abstention and/or hiding from the triggers.

Lust is to be destroyed and transformed as True love for the divine. The mind is to be controlled so only True love for the Lord exist. Now I am amused that abstention is being brought up again to say worldly love is true. Householders are not abstaining, if they were then they would not have children of their own.

It is in effect more like Buddhism, with a middle path, with complete awareness of what is going on and how it affects the mind, not an extreme path.

Himmat ji, in your point of view what I have said is an extreme path. Try to understand the subtle aspects of what I am saying. Thanks.

The major difference in that there is recognition of God, with Him being a universal all-pervading God that is the cause of all that happens. Even with this one point, that God is the cause of everything, one will accept that love is part of His creation. He has caused humans to see other humans with a form of sexual desire, and to abandon it completely would be totally against His Hukam.

Himmat ji, yes God is the creator. God is the creator and all causer of love, maya, murder, assassination, compassion, humility, anger, hate. Staying in your context then He(God) caused humans to see other humans with a form of hate, and to abandon it completely would be totally against his Hukam. Now your statement is seen in it's true colors and according to Sikhi it is not with it's practices.

All that is required is control of any lustful sensations and no reaction to them. In time they will disappear, if one uses the will of the mind to not respond.

Himmat ji, if you look up the word lust and then desire(sexual desire) they mean the same thing. In the above you have stated not to have no reaction to lust then that would also to mean no reaction to sexual desire because desire and lust have identitical meanings.
Now I will quote you what you said just one sentence above this above quote.

He has caused humans to see other humans with a form of sexual desire, and to abandon it completely would be totally against His Hukam.

In the above you say not to abandon it, but in your last sentence of your whole post you have said not to react to it. If one does not react to sexual desir/lust then they have abandoned it. These two statement collide head on and contradict each other.
Lastly, having control of lust is a step forward to experiencing divine love, but is not the final step. Crush lust/sexual desire and loving by the divine is True love where worldly love is dust.

[VictoryEverlasting]

wjkk wjkf
The video was helpful.

lots of typing..haha and I have been trying to read and follow..but its hard.
In the last few days, I think I have understood a little more...anb kirtan/bani has helped more and more on this matter.
in terms of taking away that 'urge' to do it...ha.

The more I listen to Bani/kirtan the more it helps...

|| 1 || He alone is called your companion, who will not be separated from you, here or hereafter. That pleasure, which passes away in an instant, is trivial. || Pause ||

sincerely...
wjkk wjkf

[SSK1]

Listen up son - A good way of using up sexual tension is by doing sports (jogging helps me). Another way is to change your thoughts whenever your mind starts drifting towards lustful thoughts (e.g. if you start thinking about intercourse start thinking about something else).

Hope this helps.

[himmat_singh]

Sat Sri Akal

Dear 5ikh ji

Firstly you need to know I wasn’t pointing fingers at you in particular. There is absolutely nothing personal in this, on my part, and I don’t think you are writing to attack me either. You are posting as you believe, and I am doing likewise. I have nothing to gain from hurting others feelings. I apologise for any offence you do feel.


I did comment on some things that you had written, especially your references to detachment, as well as a recent comment by Keshgarh ji on another thread (social exchange – he suggested that housewives are trained in soft skills and in house-keeping, child-rearing etc http://www.sikhnet.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2885 ) , what Ishna ji had written with a sense of despair in her post when she suggested she was not adding to the discussion and was leaving it to males. The fear reference was not to intimidation from you, but to being able to speak her mind openly. I also wished to express my own views on the topic and to understand more, from anybodies’ responses, including your own, as to how they perceive sexual desire. My earlier post of the 4th Nov addressed to Charandhoor ji may have shown you that I was quite baffled why someone sees this as a sin. I still can’t see why some do. I think the ones that do are confusing sexual desire with lust.

In responding to your various points, let me begin by making it clear that I do not accept what you say about the role of God/Waheguru in Sikhi. This is absolutely critical. Some posts I tried to make on this theme early after joining this forum last year were rejected, and even this one may be. I sincerely hope it is allowed though. There is no attack on anybody, and no attack on Gurus, and no attack on sikhi, only a different perception. That is what discussion is about, if all know all, then there is no point in discussing.

The different perception to what you appear to be expressing has tremendous ramifications on everything else I write though, and the difference is leading to some members feeling pretty irritated by what I write. However they are completely free to write what they wish, and to practice and believe as they wish. I cannot change anybody’s view unless they allow it to be changed.

As far as I am concerned, Guru Nanak Dev ji is directing followers, including me, to look inwards to find God. God resides in the human mind and directs the mind.
P2:

Within the mind are gems, jewels and rubies, if you listen to the Guru’s Teachings, even once. The Guru has given me this one understanding: there is only the One, the Giver of all souls.

The God Guru Nanak Dev ji bows to is his inner soul, his God, which pervades the universe. He is at one with, or merged with, that inner God, and hence can see himself as God as well. He recognises such God as the one who is commanding him, giving him hukams.

Following the commands issued by God within, will lead to a sense of contentment and inner peace.
P1:

So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away? O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will.

That is all that can be expected. There is no other being, residing in some clouds, or in some other universe. The universe is one, and God is one but manifests in infinite forms.
P8:

Air is the Guru, Water is the Father, and Earth is the Great Mother of all. Day and night are the two nurses, in whose lap all the world is at play. Good deeds and bad deeds.the record is read out in the Presence of the Lord of Dharma. According to their own actions, some are drawn closer, and some are driven farther away. Those who have meditated on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and departed after having worked by the sweat of their brows.O Nanak, their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and many are saved along with them!

To me this is crystal clear. Sikhi is actually very realistic, but is being overcomplicated. There is nothing more to God. We are living in a very real world, (air, day, night, water) with God alongside us all the time, whilst He judges actions all the time, leading to guilty consciences or free consciences, depending on how one perceives ones own actions. Meditating upon Him, can realise Him.

God is as much in me, as in you, as in everybody else, across the universe. Ultimately God will reform into One, when the universe contracts, and will then re-emerge again into the infinite manifestations that He formlessly takes up when the universe expands again. There is no space where He does not exist, and He does not reside on His won in a particular space. The Sachkhand and the lower levels referred to in Japji Sahib, are the different levels of the human mind, and as one spiritually progresses one visualises the higher levels. If one visualises the top level, Sachkhand, one will have achieved self-realisation, which is the goal. To do this requires extreme self-discipline, as one is always succumbing to distractions. Distraction, such as somebody’s personal attacks on others, naturally affect all people to a lesser or greater degree. It causes a mental response to take place. The distractions lead to anger, greed, lust etc, which drives one even further from the goal of utter contentment, calm and obviously makes it even more difficult to attain self-realisation. Hence they are said to be evils, Sikhi says to be dealt with. To deal with them requires detachment from what is going on around one. It requires one to ignore what is going on, and become non-reactive, to what in a typical person would cause a reaction, whether it be anger or a lust craving etc. When one goes through this process one also becomes indifferent to sensations such as pleasure and pain. They become one and the same, as one just does not react to either sensation.


P8: Let self-control be the furnace, and patience the goldsmith. Let
understanding be the anvil, and spiritual wisdom the tools. With the Fear of God as the bellows, fan the flames of tapa, the body’s inner heat. In the crucible of love, melt the Nectar of the Name, and mint the True Coin of the Shabad, the Word of God.

This again reinforces what I have written above. All can be found with due concentration and meditation. It requires exercise of a very serious level of willpower. Most minds are lazy and don’t wish to be pushed to do things to do what they know is right, when there is an easy way out. The most obvious sign of this is the obesity we see nowadays; people eat even when they know they don’t need to. They go for what is nice and/or easy. They are also easily distracted. If one gets this level of self-control, the true amrit will then flow in abundance, and one will realise the Soul. (God). One will be at level of Truth, where one will become all knowledgeable, the Antarjammee, inner-knower, searcher of the heart.

Aside of Sikhi now, as I warned Ishna ji, this is not something to be taken lightly. There are great dangers attached to tampering with the manner in which the autonomic nervous system operates, that regulates breathing, heart-rates, reflex actions etc. It is designed for survival, and is quite perfectly designed, in conjunction with the human endocrine system, the central nervous system and the peripheral nervous system. It includes extremely rapid responses to things that trigger such things such as anger and sexual desire. These things portrayed as the five evils in Sikhi, and in other S Asian religions, are actions designed for survival, and survival of the fittest at that. Without them people would be damp squibs and the evolution that has taken place to date, would not have. They are very important to survival of the human race, and not evils unless they become rampant and uncontrolled. They need to be kept in check but not destroyed, even if Sikhi suggests they should be destroyed. Until you achieve self-realisation, you will not know what is achieved and whether there is any way back. I have no doubt it could lead to complete detachment, as I have myself sensed some quite strange feelings whilst trying to meditate in a concentrated focused way, but I am conscious of the fact that it may also lead to destruction of the mind itself. So I am wary of trying too hard. Personally, I would be very happy in just getting to a level of calm and contentment, and aware of what moves me, rather than becoming completely indifferent to my wife, children and others, apparently to merge with my true Husband, the God within. You will be aware that there are others who use hallucinatory drugs such as LSD and ecstasy, to achieve other mental states, and I don’t need to get to such states with or without drugs.

I don’t quite agree with you over what “dead while yet alive” means. It does mean being like a lotus that is unaffected by what is going around it, but there is more. To be a lotus totally unaffected requires one to be completely unresponsive to any sensation, even though it is perceived. This is equivalent to somebody who is incapable of responding, even if he/she senses something. It is like a paralysed person, who has trained the mind to not respond to any sensation. The purpose being to leave a mind which does not think of anything at all other than pure concentration on the Lord, with all external and internal distractions removed, leaving one to realise the remainder, which would be the resident Lord within.

I am quite happy living with my family and with other humans at their level, even if not completely detached, occasionally becoming angry and feeling love for my family, and feeling proud of certain things. The same is completely true of most Sikhs/sikhs as well, as they are also human and function exactly as God designed them, which is why some drink, dress as they wish, open liquor stores, feel proud of their religion, move to new countries for economic reasons etc etc. If they were totally detached they would not care less whether they lived or died, or whether anybody else died either, as they would see only the Husband Lord as the one and only goal. They would have no pride in being Sikh either. They would be the Akaal-Moorat, Nirbhau and Nirvair, as they would be merged with God, the inner soul, just as Guru Nanak was who saw none as Hindu or Muslim, which implies no-one as Sikh either, only they didn’t exist during his lifetime so he couldn’t mention them. Most have more than merger with God in mind though, just as I do.

As to love and lust, I think you are equating sexual desire to lust. I am not.
You asked me to look it up, so I did:
Oxford.com

lust
• noun 1 strong sexual desire. 2 a passionate desire for something. 3 Theology a sensuous appetite regarded as sinful.
• verb (usu. lust for/after) feel lust for someone or something.
The adjectives before “sexual desire” are critical. My idea of sexual desire does not include this heightened level of desire , “strong” or “passionate”

Sexual desire for members of the opposite sex are very natural, and without them there would be ineffective progression of the human race. It does not have to be strong or excessive at all, which is what would make it lustful. Many do get feelings of lust, especially when they are lead to believe it is normal, for example by modern media designed to sell music, goods, cosmetics, clothes etc. I was trying to say in my last post, if I didn’t express myself adequately, that sexual desire and love are required, and are quite acceptable, but any excessive feelings that make it lust will subside if one ignores them, having recognised that what was going on in the mind was lustful rather than love. I don’t think it is good to crush sexual desire, or love, altogether. It every Sikh did that, it would not be too long before there will be no Sikhs at all.

I don’t follow what you say about how the Gurus had children.
“Guru Sahiban wives had children through the love Guru Sahib expressed of the divine.”

Everybody else is exactly the same. God is within all. God is all pervading. He is the giver of all souls. So everybody else is in quite similar boats, just heading in different directions, at different rates, but each lead by God as God commands them to move. When they cross God (ie the God within), and try to go against His will, they get a feeling of guilt which they then call a sin. When they go along with God (Hukam Rajaai Chalnaa) they are rewarded by good feelings, feelings of achievement and pride in their achievements. Things like seva for humanity, compassion, charity, lead to this same feeling of pride. It is very normal, but needs to be associated to things that everybody else sees as good as well, otherwise one will do things that harm others but still see them as good deeds. Here enters the need for religions, common moral standards, governments, laws. First we had the law of God(inner God), then we had people who came up with religions which codified morals, now we have state laws which overlap and sometimes conflict with religions. All the time the law of God, His Hukam, persists. One could freely choose religion, unless persecuted, but one now has to choose what to do in the event of a conflict of the Hukam with state law.
My fingers are tired now, as this has been such a long post; please forgive any typos, repetitions and mistakes. Nobody should take any offence from anything I write. Please.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

[SSS]

You have to understand that thoughts and desires are like waves. They will come and go as long as you are alive.
Can't run away from them because they are inside you but you can reduce their intensity by meditating/clear thinking.

Next time when the wave comes try to experience it as fully as you can and observe from the start to the end.
Understand how it originates, what is taking place inside you and can you detach yourself and just become an observer rather than the doer/participant(karta). This will tell you if you have/can control or not.

Sex is not a sin. We won't have flowers, fruits and vegetables if plants stop pollinating, which is a form of sex. I don't know if the plants are doing it for pleasure/enjoyment, as duty towards human/god or they are just going with the flow or even if it is just happening by itself and they are just observers.

You feel guilty after the wave comes and you go for a ride of imagination, associating yourself with another man/woman without their consent. Have you ever thought that despite the guilt you do the same thing when the wave comes again?
Start observing and become aware and you will get your answers.
The answer will come from your inside. My explanation or someone else won't go very far for you.

Love/accept yourself the way you are - this is how it is meant to be.

[drdln]

You have to understand that thoughts and desires are like waves. They will come and go as long as you are alive.
Can't run away from them because they are inside you but you can reduce their intensity by meditating/clear thinking.

Next time when the wave comes try to experience it as fully as you can and observe from the start to the end.
Understand how it originates, what is taking place inside you and can you detach yourself and just become an observer rather than the doer/participant(karta). This will tell you if you have/can control or not.

Sex is not a sin. We won't have flowers, fruits and vegetables if plants stop pollinating, which is a form of sex. I don't know if the plants are doing it for pleasure/enjoyment, as duty towards human/god or they are just going with the flow or even if it is just happening by itself and they are just observers.

You feel guilty after the wave comes and you go for a ride of imagination, associating yourself with another man/woman without their consent. Have you ever thought that despite the guilt you do the same thing when the wave comes again?
Start observing and become aware and you will get your answers.
The answer will come from your inside. My explanation or someone else won't go very far for you.

Love/accept yourself the way you are - this is how it is meant to be.

This is the first sensible comment, I have read on this topic. If there is no sex, there is no reproduction. The strong desire is to make sure that the species continue to reproduce and survive. This is created by Nature/God. So calling it sin is itself a sin, IMO. When to use it and when to abuse it is the choice an individual makes, whether it's about eating, sleeping, sex, and so on... That's why God has given us brain and thinking power.. His duty for our everyday actions ends with it.

It reminds me an anecdote: A man had a blind faith in the power of God. One time when he was swimming, he started drowning. Life guard came to help him, but he refused and said My God will save me . Then a boat came to help him, the man repeated the same thing and said My God will save me . After that a helicopter came to rescue him, the man again repeated that My God will save me . After that he was drowned.

He reached in the court of God, and complained: I trusted YOU and worshiped YOU with full faith, but YOU did not come to save me. God said: I first sent the life guard, you refused. Then, I sent a boat to save you, you refused. In the end I sent a helicopter, you again refused. And above all that I have given you the brain and thinking power. I don t help those people who don t use the brain. God said, use your brain than to have a blind faith and God disappeared.

[5ikh]

Sat Sri Akal

Dear 5ikh ji

Firstly you need to know I wasn’t pointing fingers at you in particular. There is absolutely nothing personal in this, on my part, and I don’t think you are writing to attack me either. You are posting as you believe, and I am doing likewise. I have nothing to gain from hurting others feelings. I apologise for any offence you do feel.

Himmat ji, you indirectly responded to my post and that's all was said. Nothing more. No attacks.

I did comment on some things that you had written, especially your references to detachment,

By saying detachment it going away from what truly was stated by me. Please re-read my post.

as well as a recent comment by Keshgarh ji on another thread (social exchange – he suggested that housewives are trained in soft skills and in house-keeping, child-rearing etc http://www.sikhnet.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2885 ) ,

Yes, I read it and i am shocked by it. When I wrote their i did missed that point of Keshgarh ji's. Maybe you should ask for further explainatation by what he means by it.

what Ishna ji had written with a sense of despair in her post when she suggested she was not adding to the discussion and was leaving it to males. The fear reference was not to intimidation from you, but to being able to speak her mind openly.

It was about not being male and had nothing to do with fear. As was said before, if intimidation or fear was being drilled in her then Admin or mod's would have stepped in and Ishna ji, is always allowed to speak her mind. She just decided to leave it to the men to discuss this since a Singh asked. So can you point out where Ishna ji was not allowed to speak her mind openly according to the forum guidlines.

I also wished to express my own views on the topic and to understand more, from anybodies’ responses, including your own, as to how they perceive sexual desire. My earlier post of the 4th Nov addressed to Charandhoor ji may have shown you that I was quite baffled why someone sees this as a sin. I still can’t see why some do. I think the ones that do are confusing sexual desire with lust.

To dwell on the lower energy too much brings the lower energy out in a person. Sexual desire and lust are the same. This will be shown later on in the post.

In responding to your various points, let me begin by making it clear that I do not accept what you say about the role of God/Waheguru in Sikhi. This is absolutely critical. Some posts I tried to make on this theme early after joining this forum last year were rejected, and even this one may be. I sincerely hope it is allowed though. There is no attack on anybody, and no attack on Gurus, and no attack on sikhi, only a different perception. That is what discussion is about, if all know all, then there is no point in discussing.[/quote]

I don't have an opinion on what role God in this universe or here after. i accept the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

The different perception to what you appear to be expressing has tremendous ramifications on everything else I write though, and the difference is leading to some members feeling pretty irritated by what I write. However they are completely free to write what they wish, and to practice and believe as they wish. I cannot change anybody’s view unless they allow it to be changed.

Views are in one box, but Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji's is the Truth and stating I don't accept this, but I will use this out of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji because it fits my opinion is saying I am the master. Accept all or none, when it comes to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

As far as I am concerned, Guru Nanak Dev ji is directing followers, including me, to look inwards to find God. God resides in the human mind and directs the mind.
P2:

Within the mind are gems, jewels and rubies, if you listen to the Guru’s Teachings, even once. The Guru has given me this one understanding: there is only the One, the Giver of all souls.

Saying God is inside and then stopping there is not doing true justice here. If you read on the Gurbani says follow the Guru's teachings(Khalsa Panth) and then you will realize the gems, jewels and rubies. Now here is what Guru ji says on sexual desire and it is his teaching.

kwim kroiD ngru bhu BirAw imil swDU KMfl KMfw hy ]
kaam karodhh nagar bahu bhariaa mil saadhhoo kha(n)ddal kha(n)ddaa hae ||
The body-village is filled to overflowing with anger and sexual desire; these were broken into bits when I met with the Holy Saint.
ang 13, please go to ang 13 for the full shabad.

The God Guru Nanak Dev ji bows to is his inner soul, his God, which pervades the universe. He is at one with, or merged with, that inner God, and hence can see himself as God as well. He recognises such God as the one who is commanding him, giving him hukams.


Following the commands issued by God within, will lead to a sense of contentment and inner peace.
P1:

So how can you become truthful? And how can the veil of illusion be torn away? O Nanak, it is written that you shall obey the Hukam of His Command, and walk in the Way of His Will.

yes, and above the Hukam is to crush sexual desire on ang 13.

That is all that can be expected. There is no other being, residing in some clouds, or in some other universe. The universe is one, and God is one but manifests in infinite forms.

God is everywhere, in the clouds, in me, in the person that hates me, in my neighbors dog that likes to come over from time to time, etc, etc. The universe is apart of God. See God in all not just in yourself.

P8:

Air is the Guru, Water is the Father, and Earth is the Great Mother of all. Day and night are the two nurses, in whose lap all the world is at play. Good deeds and bad deeds.the record is read out in the Presence of the Lord of Dharma. According to their own actions, some are drawn closer, and some are driven farther away. Those who have meditated on the Naam, the Name of the Lord, and departed after having worked by the sweat of their brows.O Nanak, their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and many are saved along with them!

To me this is crystal clear. Sikhi is actually very realistic, but is being overcomplicated. There is nothing more to God. We are living in a very real world, (air, day, night, water) with God alongside us all the time, whilst He judges actions all the time, leading to guilty consciences or free consciences, depending on how one perceives ones own actions. Meditating upon Him, can realise Him.

This world is just God's creation, just like you and I. It does not exist. As God ordains so it exist. The Shalok you presented is not saying what you said. To believe this world is real is living in maya. I or this universe does not exist. Only God exist. Only true home for a God realized being is the Lord. I recommend the ones interested in find what this world is truly, then read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

God is as much in me, as in you, as in everybody else, across the universe. Ultimately God will reform into One, when the universe contracts, and will then re-emerge again into the infinite manifestations that He formlessly takes up when the universe expands again. There is no space where He does not exist, and He does not reside on His won in a particular space.

God being in you and realizing God is two completely different concepts. Please listen to the shabad Guru. In Japji Sahib it say many have tried to describe God, but have failed. Where God is exactly or what God is no where for me to comment and I would be a moorakh for saying I do. In words God can't be described.

jy hau jwxw AwKw nwhI khxw kQnu n jweI ]
jae ho jaanaa aakhaa naahee kehanaa kathhan n jaaee ||
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words. ang2

The Sachkhand and the lower levels referred to in Japji Sahib, are the different levels of the human mind, and as one spiritually progresses one visualises the higher levels. If one visualises the top level, Sachkhand, one will have achieved self-realisation, which is the goal. To do this requires extreme self-discipline, as one is always succumbing to distractions. Distraction, such as somebody’s personal attacks on others, naturally affect all people to a lesser or greater degree. It causes a mental response to take place. The distractions lead to anger, greed, lust etc, which drives one even further from the goal of utter contentment, calm and obviously makes it even more difficult to attain self-realisation. Hence they are said to be evils, Sikhi says to be dealt with.

i can agree here somewhat so will not respond.

To deal with them requires detachment from what is going on around one. It requires one to ignore what is going on, and become non-reactive, to what in a typical person would cause a reaction, whether it be anger or a lust craving etc. When one goes through this process one also becomes indifferent to sensations such as pleasure and pain. They become one and the same, as one just does not react to either sensation.

Not detachment from what is going on, but to act instead of re-act. To ignore would be being the yogi in the woods. As on ang 13 it is said to crush sexual desire. Pleasure and pain are seen as the same because now the person is one with the Lord. The person lives in Divine love.

P8: Let self-control be the furnace, and patience the goldsmith. Let
understanding be the anvil, and spiritual wisdom the tools. With the Fear of God as the bellows, fan the flames of tapa, the body’s inner heat. In the crucible of love, melt the Nectar of the Name, and mint the True Coin of the Shabad, the Word of God.

The self control that is mentioned here is when one does not act in sexual desire ever. The self control that is mentioned here is when the person act in divine love.

This again reinforces what I have written above. All can be found with due concentration and meditation. It requires exercise of a very serious level of willpower. Most minds are lazy and don’t wish to be pushed to do things to do what they know is right, when there is an easy way out. The most obvious sign of this is the obesity we see nowadays; people eat even when they know they don’t need to. They go for what is nice and/or easy. They are also easily distracted. If one gets this level of self-control, the true amrit will then flow in abundance, and one will realise the Soul. (God). One will be at level of Truth, where one will become all knowledgeable, the Antarjammee, inner-knower, searcher of the heart.

Saying I can indulge in sexual desire is taking the easy way, but does not lead to realizing God. Ang 13, Guru Ram Das ji specifically says crush sexual desire.

Aside of Sikhi now, as I warned Ishna ji, this is not something to be taken lightly. There are great dangers attached to tampering with the manner in which the autonomic nervous system operates, that regulates breathing, heart-rates, reflex actions etc. It is designed for survival, and is quite perfectly designed, in conjunction with the human endocrine system, the central nervous system and the peripheral nervous system. It includes extremely rapid responses to things that trigger such things such as anger and sexual desire. These things portrayed as the five evils in Sikhi, and in other S Asian religions, are actions designed for survival, and survival of the fittest at that.[/quote]

Yes anger and sexual desire are theives. They rob a person of seeing the Lord and if other religions believe they are very much needed then that is their path. In Sikhi Divine love is to be a person state and acts in that state, the highest state of them all.

Without them people would be damp squibs and the evolution that has taken place to date, would not have. They are very important to survival of the human race, and not evils unless they become rampant and uncontrolled.

Whether what would have happened is all God's play. But a Sikh knows what to do. He knows to crush the five theives and live in divine love. I know you feel strongly that it isn't so, but I follow Guru ji.

They need to be kept in check but not destroyed, even if Sikhi suggests they should be destroyed.

Sikhi does say destroy them and what you state above is something really important to the whole discussion. Himmat ji, Sikhs follow Guru ji to every word. I know its your opinion and you don't agree with Guru ji here, but it is a Sikh teaching to crush sexual desire.

Until you achieve self-realisation, you will not know what is achieved and whether there is any way back. I have no doubt it could lead to complete detachment, as I have myself sensed some quite strange feelings whilst trying to meditate in a concentrated focused way, but I am conscious of the fact that it may also lead to destruction of the mind itself. So I am wary of trying too hard. Personally, I would be very happy in just getting to a level of calm and contentment, and aware of what moves me, rather than becoming completely indifferent to my wife, children and others, apparently to merge with my true Husband, the God within. You will be aware that there are others who use hallucinatory drugs such as LSD and ecstasy, to achieve other mental states, and I don’t need to get to such states with or without drugs.

You did not understand my previous post and this is why I continue to repeat myself, over and over. I requested before that you do not take my words out of context and i will request again for the same. My stance on this subject is clear and now all it seems to me is a battle of the egos. So you have shared yours and I have shared mine.

I don’t quite agree with you over what “dead while yet alive” means. It does mean being like a lotus that is unaffected by what is going around it, but there is more. To be a lotus totally unaffected requires one to be completely unresponsive to any sensation, even though it is perceived. This is equivalent to somebody who is incapable of responding, even if he/she senses something. It is like a paralysed person, who has trained the mind to not respond to any sensation. The purpose being to leave a mind which does not think of anything at all other than pure concentration on the Lord, with all external and internal distractions removed, leaving one to realise the remainder, which would be the resident Lord within.

Dead while alive is when your God concsious. This does not mean being paralyzed. Dead while alive is being fully concsious of yourself. Not to react, but act when needed. This does not mean to be a yogi. It is to see pleasure and pain as one. Take for example someone threats to hurt another. Dead while alive doesn't mean he will sit down and start meditating. But will act by exploring what caused someone to behave in such way. And take the proper ways to deal with it. A person that is not dead while alive would threaten back. Take the same one put now say he the attacker is running at you. Dead while alive would not mean to attack him back, because that would be reactive. But to act would be defend yourself. Learn your Gutka.

I am quite happy living with my family and with other humans at their level, even if not completely detached, occasionally becoming angry and feeling love for my family, and feeling proud of certain things. The same is completely true of most Sikhs/sikhs as well, as they are also human and function exactly as God designed them, which is why some drink, dress as they wish, open liquor stores, feel proud of their religion, move to new countries for economic reasons etc etc. If they were totally detached they would not care less whether they lived or died, or whether anybody else died either, as they would see only the Husband Lord as the one and only goal. They would have no pride in being Sikh either. They would be the Akaal-Moorat, Nirbhau and Nirvair, as they would be merged with God, the inner soul, just as Guru Nanak was who saw none as Hindu or Muslim, which implies no-one as Sikh either, only they didn’t exist during his lifetime so he couldn’t mention them. Most have more than merger with God in mind though, just as I do.

Sikh live in divine love and not Worldly love. Divine love is beyond worldly love. Again detached comes up. Amusing really. Also Sikh very much did exist during Guru Nanak Dev ji's time. Infact Guru Nanak Dev ji himself gave the name Sikh to his followers. In Japji Sahib the word Sikh comes up together with Guru. So Guru Nanak Dev ji was very aware of his own disciples.

As to love and lust, I think you are equating sexual desire to lust. I am not.
You asked me to look it up, so I did:
Oxford.com

lust
• noun 1 strong sexual desire. 2 a passionate desire for something. 3 Theology a sensuous appetite regarded as sinful.
• verb (usu. lust for/after) feel lust for someone or something.
The adjectives before “sexual desire” are critical. My idea of sexual desire does not include this heightened level of desire , “strong” or “passionate”

Here is the definition for the word desire:

to wish or long for; crave; want.
2. to express a wish to obtain; ask for; request: The mayor desires your presence at the next meeting.

–noun 3. a longing or craving, as for something that brings satisfaction or enjoyment: a desire for fame.
4. an expressed wish; request.
5. something desired.
6. sexual appetite or a sexual urge.

And you can see Guru Ram Das Ji in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji tells us to crush sexual desire on ang 13

Sexual desire for members of the opposite sex are very natural, and without them there would be ineffective progression of the human race. It does not have to be strong or excessive at all, which is what would make it lustful.

To get angry or to be attached to the world is very much natural for humans. Guru Sahib says crush them and enjoy the divine love.

Many do get feelings of lust, especially when they are lead to believe it is normal, for example by modern media designed to sell music, goods, cosmetics, clothes etc. I was trying to say in my last post, if I didn’t express myself adequately, that sexual desire and love are required, and are quite acceptable, but any excessive feelings that make it lust will subside if one ignores them, having recognised that what was going on in the mind was lustful rather than love. I don’t think it is good to crush sexual desire, or love, altogether. It every Sikh did that, it would not be too long before there will be no Sikhs at all.

As I said before no one is crushing love. Only True love(divine love) has to be realized. I trust my Guru, have faith in my Guru and when he tells me to crush sexual desire, I very well am on that path by Guru Grace.

I don’t follow what you say about how the Gurus had children.
“Guru Sahiban wives had children through the love Guru Sahib expressed of the divine.”

Yes I can tell through out your post Himmat ji. Well i'll give another go at it for explaining it. God is God we have the tools here on earth to realize his state. Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is the Sikhs guide and the world around us and this dress we wear of skin is false. our companion are false, our love for them is false, our hate is false, our give and take is false. The only way one becomes true is by living in/by divine love. When you have that divine love the world is just a small marble. You see everyone with one eye; divine love. You are in that state which can't be described, and me the moorakh is trying to describe it. This divine love is only know to the ones that experience it now and forever. If a couple is at this level of divine love then they are truly husband and wife. Two body's, but one soul of the divine. They live as householders. They have children, they are out in the community, taking their children to soccer games, teaching others Sikhi. They sit near us at many places. These Gurmukhs are so rare, but only one who is Gurmukh himself/herself knows who they are. I don't know who they are so that tells about who I am.

Everybody else is exactly the same. God is within all. God is all pervading. He is the giver of all souls. So everybody else is in quite similar boats, just heading in different directions, at different rates, but each lead by God as God commands them to move.

God is in all, but not all are united with God; have realized God.


When they cross God (ie the God within), and try to go against His will, they get a feeling of guilt which they then call a sin. When they go along with God (Hukam Rajaai Chalnaa) they are rewarded by good feelings, feelings of achievement and pride in their achievements.[/quote]

Himmat ji, there is only God, so why feel pride over achievments of the Lord. Feeling pride of achievments is a subtle hint of ego or a huge amount depending how boastful the person is of his accomplishment. When Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh is said then any victory of the Khalsa, being it of a single Khalsa is a victory of God. Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji has truly blessed us with the tools of eliminating the five theives.

Things like seva for humanity, compassion, charity, lead to this same feeling of pride. It is very normal, but needs to be associated to things that everybody else sees as good as well, otherwise one will do things that harm others but still see them as good deeds.

What have we humans done. What have we accomplished. The word nothing comes to mind everytime. This is God's play. Some times he makes some high and other low. And then again makes the higher lower and lowest highest. Who created compassion, who created True love. Who created us. It's all of God's doing. I am not here because of I. God's play is so wonderful and fascinating. Who created anger, who created hate, who created poverty. This is God's play and we as people can't realize that. I sit here saying I know all, other sit as I know all and can do everything. As his servant or even better described as his puppets, we are in a play. The universe is the threatre. The Lord is the audience along with his Gurmukhs.

In this world we have to decide are we going to become the hunted or Saint-soldiers. This don't mean grab your guns, but grab your spiritual tools and defend yourself from the five thieves. These five theives are so smart they come in the most cunning way. They come in complete subtleness. With out a person noticing they rob the person of divine love. Guru Sahib has warned us over and over. But some see this as just repitition. Becoming a Khalsa mean hard-work. God in his play waves the five theives infront of us. Fools like me sit back and just take it and don't realize my mistake. At the time the five theives were infront of us, the five virtues were present aswell. That divine love was their, but me being the moorakh couldn't see it. Guru ji says travel on a straight line and I go left i go right like I am dodging him.

In this world I can dodge all I like. Try to look for holes, well atleast I think it's an escape, but the Truth never changes it is stated in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Death can not be avoided. So either i smarten up and realize worldly ways are attached to death or close my eyes and keep making left and right turns.

Here enters the need for religions, common moral standards, governments, laws. First we had the law of God(inner God), then we had people who came up with religions which codified morals, now we have state laws which overlap and sometimes conflict with religions. All the time the law of God, His Hukam, persists. One could freely choose religion, unless persecuted, but one now has to choose what to do in the event of a conflict of the Hukam with state law.
My fingers are tired now, as this has been such a long post; please forgive any typos, repetitions and mistakes. Nobody should take any offence from anything I write. Please.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

God's law is know to a rare few. God's law(Hukam) is realized when God is realized.

In your next post, if a feel something needs to be adressed then i will respond otherwise i am just repeating over and over the same thing and just taking up space and where the creator already has got his answeres. More than anything this has turned into a battle of the egos.

[5ikh]

You have to understand that thoughts and desires are like waves. They will come and go as long as you are alive.
Can't run away from them because they are inside you but you can reduce their intensity by meditating/clear thinking.

Next time when the wave comes try to experience it as fully as you can and observe from the start to the end.
Understand how it originates, what is taking place inside you and can you detach yourself and just become an observer rather than the doer/participant(karta). This will tell you if you have/can control or not.

Sex is not a sin. We won't have flowers, fruits and vegetables if plants stop pollinating, which is a form of sex. I don't know if the plants are doing it for pleasure/enjoyment, as duty towards human/god or they are just going with the flow or even if it is just happening by itself and they are just observers.

You feel guilty after the wave comes and you go for a ride of imagination, associating yourself with another man/woman without their consent. Have you ever thought that despite the guilt you do the same thing when the wave comes again?
Start observing and become aware and you will get your answers.
The answer will come from your inside. My explanation or someone else won't go very far for you.

Love/accept yourself the way you are - this is how it is meant to be.

This is the first sensible comment, I have read on this topic. If there is no sex, there is no reproduction. The strong desire is to make sure that the species continue to reproduce and survive. This is created by Nature/God. So calling it sin is itself a sin, IMO. When to use it and when to abuse it is the choice an individual makes, whether it's about eating, sleeping, sex, and so on... That's why God has given us brain and thinking power.. His duty for our everyday actions ends with it.

It reminds me an anecdote: A man had a blind faith in the power of God. One time when he was swimming, he started drowning. Life guard came to help him, but he refused and said My God will save me . Then a boat came to help him, the man repeated the same thing and said My God will save me . After that a helicopter came to rescue him, the man again repeated that My God will save me . After that he was drowned.

He reached in the court of God, and complained: I trusted YOU and worshiped YOU with full faith, but YOU did not come to save me. God said: I first sent the life guard, you refused. Then, I sent a boat to save you, you refused. In the end I sent a helicopter, you again refused. And above all that I have given you the brain and thinking power. I don t help those people who don t use the brain. God said, use your brain than to have a blind faith and God disappeared.

Dr. Sukhraj Singh Dhillon,

I woul like to add something to your story. Just the last paragraph.


He reached in the court of God, and complained: I trusted YOU and worshiped YOU with full faith, but YOU did not come to save me. God said: I first sent Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji, you refused. Then, I sent Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji to save you, you refused. In the end I sent Sri Dasam Granth, you again refused. And above all that I have given you the Khalsa Panth. I don t help those people who don't use the spiritual tools I have given. God said, use your Khalsa Panth than to have a blind faith and God disappeared.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[charandhoor]

Maaf karna sangat ji,
This is what I was afraid of in this forum and in this topic.....people start arguing and indulge in altercations and insinuations.

As per me, I just want to be focussed on the 'current' topic nothing else....lets not waste precious time and efforts....I have been fighting my urges/desires for the last 2 months..i failed twice but I am resilient and its working....

I am following these Steps;

1. try to lower the distractions from TV/websites which show scantily clad women or talk about sexual things...
2. Focus on your Guru's stregth from where we all get strength. I start reciting
Gauree mehalla 5 - - - Raakh Pita Prabh Merey, mohey nirgun sab gun terey
3. I am kind of regularly doing exercises like push ups and elliptical till I get tired....(around 20 minutes).
4. Listen to Shalok mehalla 9.....it lowers your worldly desires by telling you that what we see is dream and we are chasing for nothing and forgetting Who resides in us, Waheguru.
5. Start reading books, I am reading statistics to keep my mind occupied and to learn something that I do not know.

Its been working...and there are times desires want to ruin your will and then I recite and ask for help from Shabad.

I hope it helps you brother...I will pray for us....

remain in Chardi kala

Charandhoor